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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Do lots of people support Hamas?

691 replies

elprup · 03/12/2023 20:33

I just read this story and it is absolutely horrific

I saw ten Hamas terrorists beat and gang-rape an Israeli woman

https://mol.im/a/12820081

Is everyone on the pro-Palestine marches in London solely supporting the innocent civilians of Palestine (as I do too)? Or are there some people on these marches supporting the actions of Hamas as well?

I want to join the marches in support of innocent adults and kids in Gaza (and I would want to march for the same reasons on any pro Israel marches too), but I do not want to endorse Hamas in any shape or form. They are absolutely vile.

OP posts:
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49
noblegiraffe · 30/12/2023 18:05

Livinginanotherworld · 30/12/2023 17:44

One last point….An inexperienced Cessna pilot would never be able to hand fly a 757 so close to the ground and execute a 55 knot descending turn ( which would cause the aircraft to break up before impact) to hit the Pentagon….. That’s where it gets complicated.

64 people died on board the flight that you claim did not crash into the Pentagon. Who killed them then? What happened to their flight?

Trulywonderful · 30/12/2023 18:23

Livinginanotherworld · 30/12/2023 17:33

The black box is always situated in the tail of the aircraft, and it’s very rare that nothing is recoverable, even if unreadable.

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The black box is an instrument that documents all of the operations of the aircraft while it is in flight. The main one is located at the front of the aircraft. Typically, an aeroplane has two black boxes located at the front and rear of the aircraft.

After a crash, black boxes usually retain recordings for approximately 20 seconds leading up to the accident. Some black boxes record only the last few seconds or events before a collision occurs.

As you say it is rare that nothing is recovered but rare doesn't mean that this doesn't happen on occasion. So not sure your point here, as you say yourself that sometimes nothing is recovered.

Anyway I actually don't care what you believe about 9/11 but wanted to point out the flaw in your own argument regarding this bit of it

25milesfromhome · 30/12/2023 18:27

Livinginanotherworld · 30/12/2023 17:33

The black box is always situated in the tail of the aircraft, and it’s very rare that nothing is recoverable, even if unreadable.

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My original point was a riposte to your claim that it was a missile, with an explanation for the lack of plane debris.

Google reveals many reports stating that the two black boxes were in fact found at the Pentagon crash site. The cockpit voice recorder was unsalvageable but the information from the flight data recorder was recoverable, hence the flight path and speed at time of impact (530 mph) being known.

I’m now even less sure how talk of plane wings falling off and missiles fits into this really, but I’ve quite enjoyed the little diversion into conspiracy theory territory.

noblegiraffe · 30/12/2023 18:29

I saw the whole 'if a plane hit the pentagon where did the wings go' photo thing and you find yourself looking at the photo going 'gosh, that is odd' and that is how conspiracy theorists suck you in because they present you with something you are not even remotely qualified to analyse, ask you a question and then when you can't answer it, present you with their theory which you then latch onto as the only plausible explanation. Can't have been a plane.

But then you have to give your head a wobble and think 'so we know 3 planes were definitely hijacked and crashed, loads of evidence for that, and a 4th plane and all the people on board disappeared on the same day and it was claimed that it crashed into the Pentagon - isn't it more likely that it did crash into the Pentagon as claimed rather than it disappeared somewhere else, everyone on board was killed somehow with no one noticing and at the same time they destroyed the Pentagon in some other way?

untitledmum · 31/12/2023 02:18

I'm not understanding how the Pro-Palestinian posters here on Mumsnet are claiming that these marches are neutral, peaceful marches and are not Pro-Hamas. Just listen to the speeches and chants. They're so obviously pro-Hamas! And I view every person attending these marches as unfortunately pro Hamas.

Scirocco · 31/12/2023 02:44

@untitledmum I can't speak for every march, but the marches and protests near me have been consistent in calling for a ceasefire, giving a voice to the dead and displaced in Palestine, and raising awareness of the humanitarian disaster unfolding in Gaza. I haven't heard any pro-Hamas speeches.

Have there been a few people there who have expressed anti-semitic views? Other than the clearly unpleasant people out to cause trouble (who were given a wide berth and dealt with by the police when they were alerted - by people attending the protest - that this group was present), I've encountered a couple of people and generally speaking when asked about that it's been due to either a lack of awareness or having been misinformed, rather than malice.

Being in favour of a ceasefire is not the same as being pro-Hamas. Many people marching have lost loved ones, friends, colleagues, and just want the killing to stop.

HermioneWeasley · 31/12/2023 14:06

@Scirocco are they also calling for the release of the hostages, asking Hamas to stop firing rockets into Israel and condemning the atrocities of 7/10?

BigandBeefy · 31/12/2023 14:11

HermioneWeasley · 31/12/2023 14:06

@Scirocco are they also calling for the release of the hostages, asking Hamas to stop firing rockets into Israel and condemning the atrocities of 7/10?

A ceasefire would solve your first two points. The third I think 'condemning Hamas' has become a bit tired at this point, it has been done by pretty much everyone who has spoken out about Israel multiple times already. Wanting people to march about with signs saying I condemn Hamas' would look almost satirical at this point.

stomachameleon · 31/12/2023 14:55

@BigandBeefy if that was the case why has Hamas released a post this week about holding an Israeli who disappeared nine years ago.
I am Afraid a ceasefire won't just mean all the hostages go as I fear Hamas will say they don't have them all and don't speak for all that do. Hostages have confirmed 'normal civilians' were with them when held or they were in normal homes.
Hamas has also continued to fire rockets and I think would argue the same as above.
It's not just us....

Hence they should not be trusted.

etmoiandme · 31/12/2023 15:10

Scirocco · 31/12/2023 02:44

@untitledmum I can't speak for every march, but the marches and protests near me have been consistent in calling for a ceasefire, giving a voice to the dead and displaced in Palestine, and raising awareness of the humanitarian disaster unfolding in Gaza. I haven't heard any pro-Hamas speeches.

Have there been a few people there who have expressed anti-semitic views? Other than the clearly unpleasant people out to cause trouble (who were given a wide berth and dealt with by the police when they were alerted - by people attending the protest - that this group was present), I've encountered a couple of people and generally speaking when asked about that it's been due to either a lack of awareness or having been misinformed, rather than malice.

Being in favour of a ceasefire is not the same as being pro-Hamas. Many people marching have lost loved ones, friends, colleagues, and just want the killing to stop.

Have there been a few people there who have expressed anti-semitic views?

The East Berkshire branch of the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign can help with that question. I'm under the impression that these local PSG groups promote and organise attendance at both local and national protests?

I'm not going to link to their social media posts here because it's so feckin disgusting.

basculin · 31/12/2023 15:16

Have there been a few people there who have expressed anti-semitic views? Other than the clearly unpleasant people out to cause trouble (who were given a wide berth and dealt with by the police when they were alerted - by people attending the protest - that this group was present), I've encountered a couple of people and generally speaking when asked about that it's been due to either a lack of awareness or having been misinformed, rather than malice.

There was at least one placard saying that Jews killed Jesus and another eith a swastika inside a Star of David. That is malice pure and simple.

Trulywonderful · 31/12/2023 15:21

There was some news articles about different marches. One article named 5 different organisers that are well known Jew haters and have previously been caught on videos or in interviews saying horrible stuff about Jewish people (not Israel or even Israelis but Jewish people). Plus an ex Hamas member was a organiser on at least one march. Therefore the rot starts from the top when it comes to the marches.

Scirocco · 31/12/2023 16:34

I'd suggest that, if people want to join a protest or a march, they should look into who's organising it and what groups attend, and make their own decision about whether that particular march is consistent with their values.

OuiOuiKitty · 31/12/2023 16:44

stomachameleon · 31/12/2023 14:55

@BigandBeefy if that was the case why has Hamas released a post this week about holding an Israeli who disappeared nine years ago.
I am Afraid a ceasefire won't just mean all the hostages go as I fear Hamas will say they don't have them all and don't speak for all that do. Hostages have confirmed 'normal civilians' were with them when held or they were in normal homes.
Hamas has also continued to fire rockets and I think would argue the same as above.
It's not just us....

Hence they should not be trusted.

I don't know. Was that person supposed to be released as part of a ceasefire? It would obviously be part of the negotiations that hostages are released in the first steps. As far as I am aware last temporary ceasefire Hamas offered bodies of hostages they said died in Israels bombardment and Israel said no thanks. Israel would have to accept proof of death to verify that the hostages they say died did in fact die.

You lost me at 'it's not just us'. I've no idea who 'us' are.

Trulywonderful · 31/12/2023 17:23

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Tryingmybestadhd · 31/12/2023 17:25

stomachameleon · 31/12/2023 14:55

@BigandBeefy if that was the case why has Hamas released a post this week about holding an Israeli who disappeared nine years ago.
I am Afraid a ceasefire won't just mean all the hostages go as I fear Hamas will say they don't have them all and don't speak for all that do. Hostages have confirmed 'normal civilians' were with them when held or they were in normal homes.
Hamas has also continued to fire rockets and I think would argue the same as above.
It's not just us....

Hence they should not be trusted.

Exactly this , plus released hostages have talked about being held in civilian homes , being treated by doctors etc . So clearly Hamas is a big part if the population . Let’s be honest here , if I was forced to held hostages at my house I would but treat them badly or rape them , if I was a doctor I would not hurt them during treatment on purpose . No ceasefire while Hamas is in power .

Livinginanotherworld · 31/12/2023 17:29

Tryingmybestadhd · 31/12/2023 17:25

Exactly this , plus released hostages have talked about being held in civilian homes , being treated by doctors etc . So clearly Hamas is a big part if the population . Let’s be honest here , if I was forced to held hostages at my house I would but treat them badly or rape them , if I was a doctor I would not hurt them during treatment on purpose . No ceasefire while Hamas is in power .

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Am I reading this correctly? “ if you were forced to hold hostages at your house you would treat them badly or rape them” ? Hoping I’ve read this wrong.

Tryingmybestadhd · 31/12/2023 17:45

Livinginanotherworld · 31/12/2023 17:29

Am I reading this correctly? “ if you were forced to hold hostages at your house you would treat them badly or rape them” ? Hoping I’ve read this wrong.

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Not ! Sorry autocorrect changed to but it should say I would NOT

Livinginanotherworld · 31/12/2023 17:47

Tryingmybestadhd · 31/12/2023 17:45

Not ! Sorry autocorrect changed to but it should say I would NOT

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Thank heavens for that, sorry for pointing it out.

Scirocco · 31/12/2023 18:31

Tryingmybestadhd · 31/12/2023 17:25

Exactly this , plus released hostages have talked about being held in civilian homes , being treated by doctors etc . So clearly Hamas is a big part if the population . Let’s be honest here , if I was forced to held hostages at my house I would but treat them badly or rape them , if I was a doctor I would not hurt them during treatment on purpose . No ceasefire while Hamas is in power .

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How does it show that Hamas is a big part of the civilian population? What it shows is that Hamas had access to some civilian homes and healthcare, which would not be unexpected, given that people fighting for Hamas probably have families and friends. If they were looking for places to keep hostages, it wouldn't make sense to take them to locations where the people there don't support Hamas. So, people taken hostage have probably been surrounded by Hamas supporters or people coerced into collaboration, but that doesn't mean that we can take a sample of people they encountered and extrapolate that to the wider population.

Hamas are unlikely to just walk away from power, and a position of no ceasefire while they are in power is unlikely to lead to anything other than a continuation of the genocide of the Palestinians. There needs to be justice, but if we allow justice to be overtaken by wrath, that just leaves us all with this cycle of hatred and death. Peace is hard to achieve and often requires difficult decisions - perhaps negotiating the disarmament and exit from power of Hamas could be part of ceasefire talks, rather than the current approach of flattening Gaza and allowing settler occupation and violence in the West Bank.

XRAYTHIS · 01/01/2024 11:12

BigandBeefy · 31/12/2023 14:11

A ceasefire would solve your first two points. The third I think 'condemning Hamas' has become a bit tired at this point, it has been done by pretty much everyone who has spoken out about Israel multiple times already. Wanting people to march about with signs saying I condemn Hamas' would look almost satirical at this point.

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Condemning hamas 'a bit tired at this point!' Well since they fired hundreds of rockets into Israel overnight perhaps they should still be condemned. All very well shouting ceasefire now whilst hamas continues with the rockets.

stomachameleon · 01/01/2024 11:20

@Scirocco

surrounded by Hamas supporters or people coerced into collaboration,

Is it so difficult to accept? Even though we have the evidence from eye witnesses and hostages that normal people were involving in the butchery and raping of Jews and other nationalities.

That they are complicit? Not hard to imagine after years of rule is it?

Unwra teacher for example? Surely your moral code would tell you not to hold someone against their will? Someone probably terrified?

marvellousceiling · 01/01/2024 11:24

XRAYTHIS · 01/01/2024 11:12

Condemning hamas 'a bit tired at this point!' Well since they fired hundreds of rockets into Israel overnight perhaps they should still be condemned. All very well shouting ceasefire now whilst hamas continues with the rockets.

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https://www.timesofisrael.com/at-stroke-of-midnight-hamas-attacks-israel-with-heavy-new-year-rocket-barrage/

According to this article it was 27, not hundreds. And no I do not condone any rocket attack.