Page 7 | Just sick

ideaspls · 2023-11-29T07:32:43+00:00

Am still in disbelief five weeks later that this was allowed to happen. how did the world just sit and watch as this was allowed to happen? now disease will ravage the rest of the displaced population 😞 The Israeli government should be ashamed… [[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/28/deaths-from-disease-in-gaza-could-outstrip-deaths-from-war-un-says https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/28/deaths-from-disease-in-gaza-could-outstrip-deaths-from-war-un-says]]

EasterIssland · 29/11/2023 20:40

Livinginanotherworld · 29/11/2023 19:57

Because it’s typical Israeli propaganda, like the awful headlines of 40 beheaded babies, all retracted as fake, but not before the idiots of the world believed it. Israel have just knocked another 200 off the death toll today, not before they told the world that 1400 were killed. It’s now down to 700 ( desperately awful as it is) but the Israeli government and the IDF are constantly being called out on their lies and being fact checked then they retract their statements, their fake videos, their propaganda. This is seriously not going to end well for Israel, they have caused their own downfall.

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Another example of what you’re saying

nobody is denying that what Hamas did on 7-10 is horrible
nobody Is denying that there were people killed by Hamas

but …
each day is proven that some of the things that israel said had happened at the beginning were lies , and the reason for this war and killing of thousands of Gazans… and I keep saying it their lies and propaganda are making people not trust them at all (it’s been a lot of lies in the last nearly 2 months)

AllWeWantToDo · 29/11/2023 20:42

Sussurations · 29/11/2023 20:36

No need to apologise, my mistake for assuming you had given what you were posting some actual thought. in fact you’re not interested in wasting time thinking about why Hamas committed atrocities when you could be criticising Israel.

Yeah, I gave it thought and came to the conclusion who knows other than hamas

I can think of lots of reasons why they might have done it but I'm not hamas so it would be pure speculation, which I don't see the point in .

Toothyfruity · 29/11/2023 20:43

Seasonsfleetings · 29/11/2023 20:39

As I’ve said before. The Israeli government have not done anything comparable to what Hamas did, neither in actions or intentions, and I suggest you look in detail at what they did so that you can see this for yourself.

And yes, the implication in your post that the Israelis brought this on themselves is disgusting.

I am saying Hamas knowingly brought this on a Palestinians. I am not saying Palestinians brought it on themselves. I am saying Hamas did and deliberately did in this single day act of calculated atrocity. Because they don’t give much more of a shit about Palestinians than they do about Jews ( let’s be clear, this was a racist attack against Jews. The terrorists are clear about this in the videos they made of themselves).

Tbh, you are increasingly sounding like an apologist for Hamas in your steadfast refusal to acknowledge this. You increasingly sound like you think Hamas had justification for this.

But to answer your question, yes, I think BN was foolish to think Hamas could be ‘contained and managed’ and that he took his eye off the ball to the threat they presented to Israelis.

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Do you really not see the problem with Israel's response? Do you think trapping people and denying them food and water while you bomb their neighbourhoods is reasonable?

Auvergne63 · 29/11/2023 20:46

Seasonsfleetings · 29/11/2023 18:56

Why did hamas carry out such a devastating attack

This is disgusting. You are here absolving Hamas of responsibility for Oct 7th and blaming Israeli Jews for the torture, rape and murder committed against them.

I have woken up alright. I’ve woken up to people like you. People who have so lost their moral compass, so lost sight of the humanity of all humans, that they observe a mass atrocity and still side with the murderers and blame the victims simply based on the race or nationality of the victims.

You need to stop and reflect on who are the people throughout history that aligns you with.

No the poster didn't absolve Hamas. No one is.
You need to make a distinction between explaining what happened and excusing it.
What is happening now did not start on 07/10 but in1948, then made worse in 1967. This is an explanation not an excuse.

People who have so lost their moral compass, so lost sight of the humanity of all humans, that they observe a mass atrocity and still side with the murderers and blame the victims simply based on the race or nationality of the victims.
I don't know if you are being sarcastic.

You need to stop and reflect on who are the people throughout history that aligns you with.

Sarcasm again?

SomeoneBurntTheToastAgain · 29/11/2023 20:50

Alargeoneplease89 · 29/11/2023 08:31

Not saying that at all...im saying why arent you not blaming hamas government

Edited

And the Israel apologists arrive again in force.

ssd · 29/11/2023 20:52

Sussurations · 29/11/2023 20:36

If you say so!

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Do you deny it?

Seasonsfleetings · 29/11/2023 20:53

ssd · 29/11/2023 20:26

Oh ffs. I'm sick of reading posts like these. What is wrong with these posters who seem to revel in the awful descriptions of what happened on oct 7th? Yes, it was deplorable, yes the world was sickened, no one heard what happened and shrugged their shoulders. NO ONE!! Do you understand that? NO ONE is saying what happened isn't utterly incomprehensible. And you and others relaying the gory details again and again are utterly shameful. I'll say it again, THIS ISNT MURDER TOP TRUMPS.
So stop it. Stop justifying the murders of over 13000 people. The Internet could be full of stories of people burned, crushed, blown up in Gaza in horrible ways BUT IT ISN'T. I haven't read any gory descriptions thankfully, even though there are thousands in Gaza, literally thousands. What is happening there is bad enough without the horrible descriptions. So stop trying to use the horrible ways people died to justify the ongoing genocide. Its deplorable to try to do this. Shameful.

Firstly, it’s just not true that no one shrugged their shoulders at the atrocities. Many, many people celebrated them. That may be inconvenient for you, but it’s painfully true.

If you read the context and my post again, you will see . I was not giving those examples to ‘justify’ anything.

What I am is disgusted by people saying ‘ it’s evil propaganda to say babies were beheaded’ The mentality of this is appalling. And yes, to a poster clearly saying ‘ well at least this didn’t happen, so Hamas are not as bad as evil Israelis have told us’ I do want to point out that Hamas are. And I do want to help bear witness when other people are trying to pretend this atrocity was not as bad as evil propagandizing Israelis are telling you. Because it was. And it’s kinda a moral duty to bear witness against those who are trying to minimize a racist atrocity.

let me give you an analogy. If someone said ‘Well, the Nazis’ never carried out this particular experiment on Jews in Concentration camps. That is just evil propaganda from the allies’.
Would you think (a) that person is a brave believer in truth, or (b) quite sympathetic to the Nazis.

I hope that gives you the context to understand how strongly I feel against people making arguments like this.

OuiOuiKitty · 29/11/2023 20:53

Seasonsfleetings · 29/11/2023 20:39

As I’ve said before. The Israeli government have not done anything comparable to what Hamas did, neither in actions or intentions, and I suggest you look in detail at what they did so that you can see this for yourself.

And yes, the implication in your post that the Israelis brought this on themselves is disgusting.

I am saying Hamas knowingly brought this on a Palestinians. I am not saying Palestinians brought it on themselves. I am saying Hamas did and deliberately did in this single day act of calculated atrocity. Because they don’t give much more of a shit about Palestinians than they do about Jews ( let’s be clear, this was a racist attack against Jews. The terrorists are clear about this in the videos they made of themselves).

Tbh, you are increasingly sounding like an apologist for Hamas in your steadfast refusal to acknowledge this. You increasingly sound like you think Hamas had justification for this.

But to answer your question, yes, I think BN was foolish to think Hamas could be ‘contained and managed’ and that he took his eye off the ball to the threat they presented to Israelis.

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I'm literally just throwing what you are saying back at you. I have repeatedly said that I don't think any violence is justifiable. If you think it is acceptable from one side then I don't see how anyone can think it is not acceptable from the other. Do you think that all Israelis brutalise and murder Palestinians and that is why you took my post to mean Israeli civilians brought it on themselves rather than the Israeli government doing the goading just like you accused Hamas of doing? I am not pretending to know why Hamas did anything, that was you that said that you knew why they did it. It was you who stated that it was to goad, all I am asking is why is it goading to you when one side does it but not the other(but of course you won't admit that Israel brutalise Palestinians).

I'm not sure what you think I am refusing to acknowledge? That Hamas are a terrorist organisation? I mentioned that on this very thread earlier(if not this one, then another this evening). Did Hamas do it as a racist attack against Jews or did they do it to goad Israel? You seem to be switching around here?

The very fact that you won't even acknowledge what Israel(the government not civilians in case you are confused) put Palestinians through day after day, year after year says a lot about how you view Palestinians and their suffering in comparison to how you view Israelis and theirs.

Alargeoneplease89 · 29/11/2023 20:53

SomeoneBurntTheToastAgain · 29/11/2023 20:50

And the Israel apologists arrive again in force.

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I'm not calling you a terrorist sympathiser so don't scoop so low.

Hamas are to blame, why people are so ignorant and blinkered is astounding. I hope Palestinians overthrow the bastards who have shown the don't give a crap about them to start this war.

Loveinacandle · 29/11/2023 20:54

is it not right to recognise that people being oppressed for long enough will likely strike back. That is not to excuse the 7/10 attacks but rather to understand it. We have seen the west take this attitude so often in recent times and it’s naïve and stupid. You cannot kill an ideology through fear and punishment alone.

What do current supporters believe has been the impact of Israel’s occupation on Gaza? And how do we achieve a 2 state solution without acknowledging the wrong doing on both sides?

To say that IDF has not terrorised Palestinians is disingenuous, imo. The reports from independent agencies are horrifying and it’s clear there are many people in that camp that do not want Palestine to exist.

Innocent people are suffering in this mess.

Loveinacandle · 29/11/2023 20:57

Alargeoneplease89 · 29/11/2023 20:53

I'm not calling you a terrorist sympathiser so don't scoop so low.

Hamas are to blame, why people are so ignorant and blinkered is astounding. I hope Palestinians overthrow the bastards who have shown the don't give a crap about them to start this war.

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I’ve also seen this said a lot. How do you think civilians over throw a terroirs group in a country, or state even, they are not in charge of?

SomeoneBurntTheToastAgain · 29/11/2023 20:58

Alargeoneplease89 · 29/11/2023 20:53

I'm not calling you a terrorist sympathiser so don't scoop so low.

Hamas are to blame, why people are so ignorant and blinkered is astounding. I hope Palestinians overthrow the bastards who have shown the don't give a crap about them to start this war.

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I also hope Jewish Israelis do the right thing and overthrow their own bastard right wing fascist government
that continues to brutalise, murder, rape and kill Palestinian women and children, and lead to deeply entrenched hatred with subsequent terrorist atrocities in the name of resistance fighters.

Alargeoneplease89 · 29/11/2023 20:59

Loveinacandle · 29/11/2023 20:57

I’ve also seen this said a lot. How do you think civilians over throw a terroirs group in a country, or state even, they are not in charge of?

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A coup

Seasonsfleetings · 29/11/2023 21:00

OuiOuiKitty · 29/11/2023 20:53

I'm literally just throwing what you are saying back at you. I have repeatedly said that I don't think any violence is justifiable. If you think it is acceptable from one side then I don't see how anyone can think it is not acceptable from the other. Do you think that all Israelis brutalise and murder Palestinians and that is why you took my post to mean Israeli civilians brought it on themselves rather than the Israeli government doing the goading just like you accused Hamas of doing? I am not pretending to know why Hamas did anything, that was you that said that you knew why they did it. It was you who stated that it was to goad, all I am asking is why is it goading to you when one side does it but not the other(but of course you won't admit that Israel brutalise Palestinians).

I'm not sure what you think I am refusing to acknowledge? That Hamas are a terrorist organisation? I mentioned that on this very thread earlier(if not this one, then another this evening). Did Hamas do it as a racist attack against Jews or did they do it to goad Israel? You seem to be switching around here?

The very fact that you won't even acknowledge what Israel(the government not civilians in case you are confused) put Palestinians through day after day, year after year says a lot about how you view Palestinians and their suffering in comparison to how you view Israelis and theirs.

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Are you talking about someone else? I have never said I think the violence the Palestinian people face is acceptable. I do object to posters here implying the violence meted on Israelis is, because of ‘context’, and ‘this started before October 7th’’.

Did Hamas do it as a racist attack against Jews or did they do it to goad Israel? You seem to be switching around here?
Completely lost as to why you think a racist attack on Israeli Jews is NOT goading the Israeli government?!?!

OuiOuiKitty · 29/11/2023 21:05

Seasonsfleetings · 29/11/2023 21:00

Are you talking about someone else? I have never said I think the violence the Palestinian people face is acceptable. I do object to posters here implying the violence meted on Israelis is, because of ‘context’, and ‘this started before October 7th’’.

Did Hamas do it as a racist attack against Jews or did they do it to goad Israel? You seem to be switching around here?
Completely lost as to why you think a racist attack on Israeli Jews is NOT goading the Israeli government?!?!

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You won't even acknowledge what Palestinian people face. And of course you don't think that there is any context to this because you won't even acknowledge what Palestinian people face?

I thought that you were talking about motivation, you made it sound like they killed them just because they are racist but what you are saying is that they killed them because they knew the Israeli government would react in a way to Israeli jews being killed that they wouldn't react to Israelis of any other creed being killed?

StarbucksSmarterSister · 29/11/2023 21:06

Livinginanotherworld · 29/11/2023 19:57

Because it’s typical Israeli propaganda, like the awful headlines of 40 beheaded babies, all retracted as fake, but not before the idiots of the world believed it. Israel have just knocked another 200 off the death toll today, not before they told the world that 1400 were killed. It’s now down to 700 ( desperately awful as it is) but the Israeli government and the IDF are constantly being called out on their lies and being fact checked then they retract their statements, their fake videos, their propaganda. This is seriously not going to end well for Israel, they have caused their own downfall.

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They knocked 200 off nearly 2 weeks ago, not today.

Today's total ( from Haaretz) is below.

Loveinacandle · 29/11/2023 21:06

Alargeoneplease89 · 29/11/2023 20:59

A coup

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How? Who will lead that coup? As I understand it, the last ‘election’ was not very legal and Hamas victory was questionable at best. The other leading armies are various terrorist groups. This, coupled with the UN stated occupation of Gaza and the ongoing victimisation faced by Gazans from IDF, who do you think they can summon to lead this coup?

StarbucksSmarterSister · 29/11/2023 21:15

no one heard what happened and shrugged their shoulders. NO ONE!!

I don't know where you've been looking but the internet is rammed with people doing just that, plus saying that it didn't happen, Israel killed all their own people, nobody was beheaded raped etcetera .

The Internet could be full of stories of people burned, crushed, blown up in Gaza in horrible ways BUT IT ISN'T.

Again it's all over the internet. Video after video and posts by people going into great detail ( including at least one poster on this very website).

Livinginanotherworld · 29/11/2023 21:16

AllWeWantToDo · 29/11/2023 20:20

Who knows what their reasoning was but it's certainly opened the eyes of an awful lot of people and countries to the fact that hamas aren't the only terrorists, its just some of them are an elected government pretending that every thing they have done and continue to do, is for the protection of israel and not that they've been punishing Palestinians for years just for being Palestinians

100% agree with this.
Netanyahu wants Gaza, this is proven, he has been openly saying it. He wants the Palestinians divided up between three other countries, how dare he have any say over this.

The only difference between Hamas and Israel is that the Western governments sponsor the arms and armed forces of Israel who then go on to commit atrocities in the name of the state and to “defend” themselves. Billions of dollars a year from the US, who cannot give their own citizens free health care, but give exactly that to Israel. You can only imagine why the tax dollars are going there. Who’s defending the Palestinians in the West Bank ? In Gaza ? In Golan ?
The Palestinians are not allowed an army of their own, or their own security. The vacuum was created by the west, they were naive at best to think it wouldn’t be filled.

Hiddenmnetter · 29/11/2023 21:18

ideaspls · 29/11/2023 08:31

Because of what a terrorist organization has done, you are saying the correct response is to kill 12,000 innocent people. Most of whom are children? Not to mention the injuries, displacement of 1.2 million. Wow

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You mean the democratically elected government of Gaza?

EasterIssland · 29/11/2023 21:22

Hiddenmnetter · 29/11/2023 21:18

You mean the democratically elected government of Gaza?

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🤦🏻‍♀️ you know around 75% of the current population didn’t elect them ?
also … Israel also democratically elected their government. The one that let Hamas in without even realising , maybe they also deserved it because they had chosen that government that allowed a breach in security?

Livinginanotherworld · 29/11/2023 21:31

https://x.com/nookyelur/status/1729955190856724693?s=20
see this from two different sources now.

Obviously I cannot verify it, but it’s very worrying

https://x.com/nookyelur/status/1729955190856724693?s=20

Toothyfruity · 29/11/2023 21:40

Hiddenmnetter · 29/11/2023 21:18

You mean the democratically elected government of Gaza?

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Are Hamas the democratic government of Gaza or is Israel the only democracy in the region? Both can't be correct.

Hiddenmnetter · 29/11/2023 21:41

EasterIssland · 29/11/2023 21:22

🤦🏻‍♀️ you know around 75% of the current population didn’t elect them ?
also … Israel also democratically elected their government. The one that let Hamas in without even realising , maybe they also deserved it because they had chosen that government that allowed a breach in security?

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I know. Because once Hamas were elected, they killed any political opposition, and they suspended elections. But let’s not whitewash what they did because they’re “just a terrorist organisation”.

the point being that the actions taken by Hamas that have led directly to the current situation weren’t the actions of a random rogue actor. They are the body responsible for the welfare of the Palestinian people’s- a state actor. The very organisation that digs up their water pipes and uses them to make rockets. The organisation that steals aid money so they can live lives of luxury in Qatar, and even in Gaza where they have 5* hotels for the very wealthy.

People are rushing to blame Israel for what’s happening, when the blame is squarely on Hamas. They did this. As the quote goes: they have sown the wind, they shall reap the whirlwind. War is brutal, and it is ugly, but - and here’s the crucial point- it was entirely intentional. Hamas knew what would happen, and they did it anyway, in short: Hamas declared war on Israel. They’re getting the boot on the neck because of how far they went this time.

There is no doubt that politically there will be fallout for BN for the failure of security that was Oct 7. I imagine that is coming, because in the first flush of a crisis people try and operate in lockstep to prevent things going wrong. That said, a failure to prevent something is nothing like the same as a positive action taken to carry out an action. One is lamentable, the other abominable.

Stomacharmeleon · 29/11/2023 21:43

@ssd 'constantly bringing up the murdered babies on October 7th sounds unhinged'

It was seven weeks ago. Seven weeks.

I also asked what you would do as you constantly say what you wouldn't so I assume you have all the answers. Sounds like a lot of deflecting and ranting again in your answer. Nothing concrete though. No actual response.