Please do all you can to object to the genocide of Palestinians

[Finallyloggedin]

It’s just heartbreaking. I’ve seen videos on twitter that are beyond anything I can even begin to describe. Palestinians are being murdered in their thousands and the western media is largely pretending it’s not happening.

The average age of the people who have been killed in Gaza is FIVE years old.

The UK media are not showing how the Israeli government is openly talking about, and cheerleading genocide now. Israeli government speaks about Palestinians as if they are not humans. They are saying women are targets as they can have babies. I’ve just read how, since October 7th they have taken over 5,000 Palestinians from the West Bank and tortured them. They were already routinely arresting Palestinians and taking them away from their family with no reason and no but this is not being adequately reported.

Please, please visit sites such as 972 magazine and declassified uk. The BBC, etc, unfortunately aren’t reporting the extent to what is going on.

https://www.declassifieduk.org/israel-and-its-allies-are-repurposing-the-goals-and-lies-of-1948-in-gaza-in-2023/

https://x.com/shaykhsulaiman/status/1748135934422307177?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

please watch

If that bomb had exploded as intended, then it was likely that most of those children would have been killed
I can't see how it is justified, from the video it can be seen how many children and babies are sheltering in that building and the fear in their eyes is heartbreaking

@Cailleachian I think it's deliberately inflammatory behaviour if you want my opinion.

@Cailleachian
I think its entirely appropriate to raise the holocaust in the current situation. It is one of the better documented genocides and one which Europeans are most familiar with, but moreover its possibly the only one that westerns do not excuse away because it happened to european people.

No, it's not appropriate to raise the Holocaust just because you say it is. It's misguided and inflammatory (at best) to raise it by way of comparison. That is not to lessen the extent of the loss of life in Gaza, but by comparing it to the Holocaust you're not showing any understanding of its unique circumstances, nor the concept of genocide. Other genocides are documented (Rwanda!) but there seems to be this need to raise the Holocaust which inevitably fuels the 'Jews are the new Nazis' stick to beat Jews with ("Holocaust Inversion" is antisemitic). So that is probably why your post was deleted.

@Babyboomtastic thankfully Mumsnet clearly don't agree with you.

The Rwandan genocide and the Great War of Africa is nowhere near as well documented or as familiar to Europeans as the Holocaust and the second world war.

As for holocaust inversion, I am in no way suggesting that the genocide of the Palestinians is being perpetrated by Jews, it is clear it is being done by the state of Israel, a theocratic ethno-state largely established by the British.

While there are elements of Jewish escatological theology that may be motivating the violence, such as third templism, this is also common to Christian zionism, and while many those actively participating may be Jewish (cos Israel is an ethno-state), the funding and resources are largely coming from those sympathetic to Christian zionist theology.

Now I definitely think you are on the wind up.

Your comment was deleted.
People hazard a guess why.
Maybe best to let it go.

As I said, people are worried about making comparisons, more because they are worried about being labelled as antisemites, than because of it being inaccurate.

If you have another example I can use, then I'll happily use that instead. I have no wish to specifically choose one from WW2. I actually would prefer to reference a well known alternative with parallels. I just don't know any.

Rwanda (if my crap memory serves me right) was horrific beyond belief, but it was more going from village to village slaughtering, rather than large scale death through siege. Horrific in a different way, but I don't know if any parallels.

So if you know a

• genoicde/ethnic cleansing situation, within the last 100 years, that's realistically well known and documented

AND (most importantly)

• where it was implemented by the containment of people into a small geographic area for a long period of time, and then deliberately denied enough resources for the people to live.
• where this was done through the use of land they were already using (so not being transported to a 'camp' elsewhere)
• where (apart from a very few exceptions), those that leave are killed
• where people are taken from that population and never returned.
• where lack of food is actively leading to starvation.
• where destruction of infrastructure/denial of aid is leading to the spread of disease, with limited ways of treating people
• where children are denied an education, both through the banning of materials from which they can learn, and now destruction of their schools.

Then I'll definitely use that as a comparitive situation.

Edited to add: I'd considered the siege of Sarajevo, but having been to the city not that long after, whilst it was awful, it's not on the same scale.

@Babyboomtastic surely you didn't make that comparison though so my issue is not with you.
I am not labelling anyone antisemitic I am saying it's grossly offensive. The parallel has been deemed so by Mumsnet so surely it's the original posters job to find another parallel that's less grossly offensive not mine.

I didn't make the parallel in the first place.

This war won't be sorted if hamas keep firing rockets and Israel don't get their aim of getting rid of hamas.

Palestinians won't give hamas up, hamas won't surrender so on it goes.

Genocide being committed against the Palestinians is the title/tone of the thread.

So i don't quite understand that making a comparison, in a post, is so wrong.

I don't think there is a sliding scale of Genocide is there?

@Babyboomtastic thank you - really informative post and totally agree with all the points you make.

@Cailleachian very interesting points.

I just want to reiterate what I know others have said too: for many (including many Jews who oppose what is happening) this really isn’t about religion. I would feel exactly the same if it were another government and military elsewhere in the world doing this to another set of people.

I question Zionism but NOT Judaism in the slightest. Judaism seems a beautiful and peaceful religion and several Jews I have met also oppose Zionism.

@stomachameleon

There are far more grossly offensive things on this thread than paraphrasing the views of nazi-sympathisers in the early part of the last century.

There is genocide denialism all over this thread.

I've met people with gunshot wounds, people who have been tortured by the Israeli state, people who have watched their friends die. Pick any date in the last 20 years and I can show you an Israeli atrocity. Right now I can open my twitter and see hundreds of dead and dying children, boastful confessions of war crimes by Israeli soldiers and watch their tiktok skits as they blow up peoples homes to the soundtrack of the screams of the people who are dying inside

Now if this is merely Hamas propaganda, and I cant believe any of what I have been personally told or seen video and photographic evidence of, why should I trust that the Holocaust is not also a hoax, and merely propaganda?

And this is why we keep the memory of the Holocaust alive. The holocaust wasn't bad because it happened to Jewish people (/slavs/gays/romanis), but because it happened at all. We keep it alive so that it never happens again and never again will people turn a blind eye when people are being killed in their millions.

But it has happened again. It happens over and over and over again and its happening right now, with the whole world watching it live on social media.

The lessons of the holocaust were not learned.

@Finallyloggedin There is a very distinct religious element to the Palestinian conflict, which has been referenced by Hamas, Hezbollah and the Israeli government.

Third templism is a Christian and Jewish ideology, based on religious theories of "the end times". Obvious not all Christians or Jewish people subscribe to this, but there are third templers within the Israeli government and their influence has become more pronounced over the last decade.

Al Asqa mosque, which in Islamic theology was the site of Mohammed ascended to heaven, was built on the ruins of Herod's temple (the second temple). Both Christian and Jewish theology make reference to a third Jewish temple being built on the site.

In Jewish theology this temple will either be built by the messiah (orthodox), or needs to be built to allow the messiah to emerge (fundamentalist), in Evangelical Christian theology, the building of the temple will summon the anti-christ, who the Jews will follow to their doom, leading to the eventual second coming of Christ.

While I am of the opinion that the gas fields of Gaza are of more interest to Israeli and western governments than any Messiah, the whole religious element which led to the the events of 7th october (called the Al Asqa Flood by Hamas) and prompted by the birth of an unblemished red heifer in Israel on 4th September cannot be ignored.

There are far more grossly offensive things on this thread than paraphrasing the views of nazi-sympathisers in the early part of the last century.

Your posts on this thread - many deleted - are the most grossly offensive I've seen on here in a while, and that's saying something. That you're digging your heels in and insist on repeatedly invoking the Holocaust, despite being told why this is offensive and bad faith, suggests you're not here for discussion but to antagonise.

It's so funny how you managed to make sure to point out the importance of the mosque in Islam yet managed to completely bypass the fact that it's also the holiest site for Jews, and was so long before the mosque was ever built 😂 Utterly pathetic attempt at trying to delegitimise the Jewish significance of the area.

Sorry @stomachameleon tagged the wrong person, I meant to tag @etmoiandme

@Humdingerydoo

There are precisely 7 words of my post that highlight the importance of the site to the Judaism and that it was so prior to the construction of Al-Asqa ("built on the ruins of Herod's temple"), and 7 words that highlight its significance to Islam ("the site of Mohammed ascended to heaven")

"Herod's temple" is very much not the Jewish name for it though, is it?

I have never seen it referred to as anything other than the Temple of Herod in Jewish theology. It tends to be Christians who refer to it as the second temple.

What do you believe it its jewish name?

Actually, I apologise. I see now that you did briefly mention the Second Temple. But for reference, that is what Jews tend to refer to it as in English, not Herod's Temple. I still feel that you didn't emphasise anywhere near enough just how important the two temples were to Jews at the time and how significant the site still is today. But maybe that's a 'me problem' from reading all your other posts and reading that specific post in the same tone as your other ones. Maybe I should have given you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you do think the temple mount is incredibly important to Jews and that Jews therefore have a legitimate claim to the land.