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Conflict in the Middle East

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Original poster

A genuine question

130 replies

Auvergne63 · 19/11/2023 15:15

Why, despite irrefutable evidence of the horrors that are happening on an daily basis in Gaza, some people are still excusing/ agreeing with what the Israeli government and the IDF are doing?
I cannot comprehend it.

OP posts:
Parkingt111 · 21/11/2023 08:47

@SidekickSylvia welcome 😊

Reallifelurker · 21/11/2023 08:49

Tell me where I'm delighted.

Well imagine someone describing October 7 in the same flippant slightly judgy tone you used. Something like:

“Well it’s not as if they were settlers occupying Palestinian Land.

Oh wait”

and you might see the problem.

Comes across as a bit callous

Kendodd · 21/11/2023 08:53

Toothyfruity · 20/11/2023 23:27

I think on your second point you meant to say Israel. They're the ones who won't stop and won't negotiate.

Op I think internationally a lot of it comes down to Islamophobia and brown-nosing America. I agree that most people recognise that the mass murder of children and civilians is wrong but our leaders aren't in touch with that. Or rather they're doing the wrong thing to protect certain interests. Basically the Palestinians don't have any friends in high places so nobody cares.

I can't give my opinion on some of the pro-Israeli posts or mumsnet will delete my post. Not because I'd say anything nasty by the way.

Show quote history

Both these posts ignore the fact that the two sides (vir third parties) ARE negotiating. They're currently negotiating over hostage release and a ceasefire.

Original poster
Auvergne63 · 21/11/2023 08:54

GingerRedBull · 20/11/2023 23:30

Hamas want to destroy Israel. Hamas broke a ceasefire with a horrific pogrom.

What, exactly, do you think Israel should do in the face of a group that wants to eradicate all Jews from Israel?

I urge you to take time to read/listen to professor Norman Finkelstein's analysis of what has been happening in Gaza for the last 75 years.
His credentials are as follow: A Jewish political scientist whose parents ( and only them) survived the Holocaust) with 40 years of experience in studying/researching/analysing this situation.
As a scientist, he has to be rigorous in his thinking. His conclusion: what is happening in Gaza stands in being between a crime against humanity and a genocide.

OP posts:
QuiQuiKitty · 21/11/2023 08:57

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Toothyfruity · 21/11/2023 09:03

Kendodd · 21/11/2023 08:53

Both these posts ignore the fact that the two sides (vir third parties) ARE negotiating. They're currently negotiating over hostage release and a ceasefire.

Show quote history

Yes but a month ago Israel refused to agree to a deal. Like they've always done during previous peace deal attempts.

Original poster
Auvergne63 · 21/11/2023 09:07

GingerRedBull · 20/11/2023 23:41

Where's the lie? Who is offering asylum to Palestinians? Egypt, which has an actual border with them? Jordan, whose country they were once part of?

Thanks to Hamas, nobody wants them.

Edited
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Before 07/10, the Israeli government and Biden ask Egypt to take on 2.3 millions Gazans in exchange with having its debts wiped out. Egypt refused.
On 24/09, Benjamin Netanyahu held a map of Israel where Gaza was deleted.
Hamas is the excuse that the Israeli government was looking for.

OP posts:
Toothyfruity · 21/11/2023 09:07

mids2019 · 21/11/2023 00:11

We have to start with simple fact the state of Israel has a right to exist and it will obviously continue after this war. Israel is going to continue to be Israel. We need to find a peace where Palestinians respect Israeli sovreignty and vice versa or this cycle of violence will continue.

Given the events of October 7th security is going to be an issue for Israel and therefore it would seem likely that a hard border of some form will have to exist as well as increased military presence along the Gaza border. We therefore have to address how best Gaza can be supported and developed to be a nascent state. I envisage that it will continue to be a city state and there will be a need for economic support for Arab neighbours as well as inward investment to aid the economy. If the economy of Gaza improves then removal of poverty will diminish the feelings amongst some of the population that terrorism is the only viable option.

I feel Egypt has a lot of input having the only other land border to Gaza other than Israel and so the international community must support Egypt in securing economic development for their neighbours in Gaza. If Gaza becomes a state then they will have to negotiate a new relationship with Israel based on peaceful co existence and maybe this God awful.violence may end.

This is only feasible if Israel gives back the land it stole and stops stealing more. Unlikely.

Also Gaza's economy would be greatly helped by the ending of the blockade by Israel so they should stop that too.

Hopefully Gaza will still exist as a Palestinian territory by the end of the year.

Original poster
Auvergne63 · 21/11/2023 09:12

GingerRedBull · 20/11/2023 23:46

How can they stop? When Hamas have explicitly said that they will regroup and reattack?

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So Israel need to murder 2.3 millions to make sure Hamas is stopped? Do you advocate genocide?

OP posts:
feralunderclass · 21/11/2023 09:23

mids2019 · 21/11/2023 00:11

We have to start with simple fact the state of Israel has a right to exist and it will obviously continue after this war. Israel is going to continue to be Israel. We need to find a peace where Palestinians respect Israeli sovreignty and vice versa or this cycle of violence will continue.

Given the events of October 7th security is going to be an issue for Israel and therefore it would seem likely that a hard border of some form will have to exist as well as increased military presence along the Gaza border. We therefore have to address how best Gaza can be supported and developed to be a nascent state. I envisage that it will continue to be a city state and there will be a need for economic support for Arab neighbours as well as inward investment to aid the economy. If the economy of Gaza improves then removal of poverty will diminish the feelings amongst some of the population that terrorism is the only viable option.

I feel Egypt has a lot of input having the only other land border to Gaza other than Israel and so the international community must support Egypt in securing economic development for their neighbours in Gaza. If Gaza becomes a state then they will have to negotiate a new relationship with Israel based on peaceful co existence and maybe this God awful.violence may end.

We have to also start with the simple fact that the state of Israel has resulted in the horrific human rights violations of the Palestinians. Not to mention the illegal occupation of land.
Last night I watched an interview with Daniella Weiss, who is head of a settler organization and was at one stage (and maybe still is) mayor of a settlement area in West Bank. Absolutely vile woman, who calls for the death of all Palestinians and for Israel to take over Gaza "and fill it with Jewish people". She was involved with some sort of talks with Ariel Sharon in a bid to stop Palestinians having rights in the West Bank. She unapologetically stated that the most effective way was to strategically dot the settlements so that the Palestinians would be 'enclaved' into very small and tightly controlled areas. She then had the audacity to say that "we are the peace loving people!" 🤔

Original poster
Auvergne63 · 21/11/2023 09:24

Echobelly · 21/11/2023 08:08

It's complicated in many ways.

I'm a Jew who does not support the Israeli government and think this is all an appalling act of revenge on Gazans, not a proportionate strike at Hamas, but a lot of Jews (not all) feel very partisan to Israel because they feel the world could turn against us at any minute and that Israel is their last and only refuge if that happens, so they want to defend it even if they know what it's doing is wrong.

Quite a lot of Jews have been brought up with the attitude that 'If anything happens, God forbid, at least you have Israel' and they feel that very strongly. I don't think that excuses anything but I think it's something people need to understand about why some people might stand by Israel. TBH i think they're just desperately hoping it can be justified although they know in their heart of hearts it isn't because they just don't want Israel to be The Bad Guy (not that there are any good guys in the leadership of either side) and they don't want anything to happen to it.

Thank very much for your answer. What you have written makes sense.

OP posts:
Arafina · 21/11/2023 09:34

Auvergne63 · 21/11/2023 09:07

Before 07/10, the Israeli government and Biden ask Egypt to take on 2.3 millions Gazans in exchange with having its debts wiped out. Egypt refused.
On 24/09, Benjamin Netanyahu held a map of Israel where Gaza was deleted.
Hamas is the excuse that the Israeli government was looking for.

Show quote history

That's really interesting, I had heard about the map but not about trying to get a deal with Egypt, it's all very sinister but sadly doesn't surprise me

OuiOuiKitty · 21/11/2023 09:38

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Why are you aping my username Hmm

Papyrophile · 21/11/2023 09:44

Egypt does not want the Palestinians because they already have enough issues with the Brotherhood of Islam at home. Radical Islam, whatever and wherever it originates, is Da'esh.

Livinginanotherworld · 21/11/2023 09:49

SidekickSylvia · 21/11/2023 08:12

It's not clear at all actually, if I'm included in 'anyone reading'. I often lurk on these threads to try and gain an understanding of the horror occurring. I was also interested in SausagenBacon's question regarding neighbouring countries not offering refuge. Europeans warmly opened their doors for Ukraine, with incentives from their governments. I don't understand why other ME countries haven't offered the same for Palestinians. You said that's because they don't want to facilitate ethnic cleansing. I'm struggling to understand that.

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The problem here is not that they are not offering refuge for Palestinians, they and the Palestinians know that if they leave Gaza, there’s a high probability that they won’t be allowed back, that is facilitating ethnic cleansing. Have you seen the Israeli flags they are putting up everywhere in Gaza ? They just want to protect their land.

Reallifelurker · 21/11/2023 09:52

Why are you aping my username

I wondered what was going on.

eester · 21/11/2023 10:03

@Reallifelurker @OuiOuiKitty I suggest you report this to MN. Copying a username to pose as someone else is not ok.

EmmaOvary · 21/11/2023 10:08

You can’t avenge dead babies by killing more babies and keep the moral high ground.

You can’t avenge dead babies by killing more babies and keep the moral high ground.

You can’t avenge dead babies by killing more babies and keep the moral high ground.

Xenia · 21/11/2023 11:52

I go back to what I said after hamas killed 1200 Israelis - if you go to war them dreadful things happen. No one says they are lovely things. We dropped a nuclear bomb during WWII. That was not a wonderful thing but it was the sort of measures you have to take in war. Women in particular and not surprisingly are often very anti war so the MN stance of many posters is not surprising.

60% of the UK has no interest in either side by the way. I am one of the few Christian UK mumsnetters with no skin in the game on either side who sides with Israel. It can be quite difficult to be in such a minority on MN but I know that the wider UK and US never mind our Government is on the side of Israel, a democracy. Israel is our ally and friend and long may that remain.

Toothyfruity · 21/11/2023 12:09

Xenia · 21/11/2023 11:52

I go back to what I said after hamas killed 1200 Israelis - if you go to war them dreadful things happen. No one says they are lovely things. We dropped a nuclear bomb during WWII. That was not a wonderful thing but it was the sort of measures you have to take in war. Women in particular and not surprisingly are often very anti war so the MN stance of many posters is not surprising.

60% of the UK has no interest in either side by the way. I am one of the few Christian UK mumsnetters with no skin in the game on either side who sides with Israel. It can be quite difficult to be in such a minority on MN but I know that the wider UK and US never mind our Government is on the side of Israel, a democracy. Israel is our ally and friend and long may that remain.

First of all I think most people agree that the use of nuclear weapons was totally unnecessary in WW2. You're the first person I've ever heard say otherwise. Note how it's never been done since.

You can't call what's happening in Gaza a war like other wars. The number of civilians killed is outrageous, especially the number of children killed. In normal wars civilians can leave. Here they are trapped, and rather than allowing access to aid Israel has cut off water, power, food and most aid while it causes horrendous injuries and death to a civilian population. It's barbarism. And ethnic cleansing and genocide too of course.

eester · 21/11/2023 12:12

@Toothyfruity and it conveniently ignores the apartheid situation in Palestine where every single citizen'sr human rights and dignity are oppressed, and land stolen e.g. in West Bank, by Israeli govt for 80 years now.

Oliotya · 21/11/2023 12:26

Xenia · 21/11/2023 11:52

I go back to what I said after hamas killed 1200 Israelis - if you go to war them dreadful things happen. No one says they are lovely things. We dropped a nuclear bomb during WWII. That was not a wonderful thing but it was the sort of measures you have to take in war. Women in particular and not surprisingly are often very anti war so the MN stance of many posters is not surprising.

60% of the UK has no interest in either side by the way. I am one of the few Christian UK mumsnetters with no skin in the game on either side who sides with Israel. It can be quite difficult to be in such a minority on MN but I know that the wider UK and US never mind our Government is on the side of Israel, a democracy. Israel is our ally and friend and long may that remain.

I don't understand why nuking Japan is held up as some kind of moralistic argument - horrendous that it ever had to happen, should never be used as an example of what to avoid in the future.
As a UK Christian, why on earth do you feel the need to pick a "side" other than peace? This is not a football match, you don't need to support any killing. Hideous stance to take.

bness · 21/11/2023 12:29

Xenia · 21/11/2023 11:52

I go back to what I said after hamas killed 1200 Israelis - if you go to war them dreadful things happen. No one says they are lovely things. We dropped a nuclear bomb during WWII. That was not a wonderful thing but it was the sort of measures you have to take in war. Women in particular and not surprisingly are often very anti war so the MN stance of many posters is not surprising.

60% of the UK has no interest in either side by the way. I am one of the few Christian UK mumsnetters with no skin in the game on either side who sides with Israel. It can be quite difficult to be in such a minority on MN but I know that the wider UK and US never mind our Government is on the side of Israel, a democracy. Israel is our ally and friend and long may that remain.

Your messages constantly erase any mention of the apartheid state, indiscriminate murder, imprisonment and land grab that is enforced for the last 75 years. And it's hardly a democracy. Did you know all rainwater that falls on Palestine belongs to Israel - they are not allowed to collect it. There have been long periods of no running water while settlers have swimming pools. People attending funerals of murdered family members can be attacked. Israeli children sing songs promoting death to Gazans. When you say long live these partnerships and you have no skin in the game etc - have you ever watched a single documentary or followed any page or books that offer a viewpoint from the ground reality of Palestinians - if not, I invite you to try.

eester · 21/11/2023 12:35

@bness and let's not forget many of the people on MN supporting innocent civilians on BOTH sides of this conflict likely have "no skin in the game". Just average citizens, probably mostly UK based, most likely neither Jewish nor Muslim, Israeli nor Palestinian... we can just see and understand oppression when we see it and choose to speak out against it.