A genuine question

[Auvergne63]

Why, despite irrefutable evidence of the horrors that are happening on an daily basis in Gaza, some people are still excusing/ agreeing with what the Israeli government and the IDF are doing?
I cannot comprehend it.

If Israel was killing everyone before, why are people getting upset now?

So why won't Hamas declare a ceasefire?

Problem is that you lot are in an echo chamber of your own making.
You’re right that very few anti Hamas/pro Israel posters come on to this board because immediately they are rounded upon and called ‘baby killer apologists’ or such like. The tone is so hyperbolic and so inflammatory what really is the point. Initially quite a few Jewish posters contributed but most of them have given up trying to join in.

If you’ve noticed, there are very few ME conflict threads elsewhere on MN. Very few new threads actually on this dedicated board and they are invariably created by the same posters who hunt in a weird pack. I actually think that there’s very little appetite for discussion on here apart from amongst the same old posters who are increasingly trying to up the ante by posting ever more ludicrous or distressing links. Really have to wonder who and where they are and their motives.
You’ve basically stifled any kind of intelligent discussion by turning it into a bloody football match with opposing sides and no nuance. And no it doesn’t represent real life either. On the whole most people are kinder, more sympathetic and less prone to call folk names.

People have been getting upset for years, how many times has Israel bombed the living hell out of Gaza. The violence in the West Bank with the illegal settlements, getting worse year on year. People have had enough, and now with social media, it can’t be hidden anymore, the world now sees Israel for what they are, they may still have the governments of the west in their pocket, but the next generation are not putting up with this shit anymore. Netanyahu is a war criminal and needs to be dealt with in The Hague. We see through the lies now.

If Israel was killing everyone before, why are people getting upset now?

Israel was not going around killing people (unless there’s a war on) but the occupied territories, the land grabs and settlements have been criticised in the past. Like I said before what allowed Hamas to flourish?

Hamas government actually tried to negotiate but guess what…..Netanyahu won’t negotiate and doesn’t seem to want the hostages back.

Idiots voting for Hamas have allowed Hamas to flourish, and foreign aid has allowed Hamas to flourish.

Literally no surrounding countries want to welcome Palestinians in, because of Hamas. They've seen what Hamas did before.

And Israel is supposed to sit there, between Hamas and Hezbollah, and meekly accept their own destruction?

@Livinginanotherworld stop being so melodramatic. From the way you are talking you sound like an activist. I mean to suggest ‘Israel has other nations in its pocket’ suggests long standing fixed opinions about the ‘Zionist state’ not sudden enlightenment on 7 October about the ME conflict.

@Livinginanotherworld you mean Hamas the terrorist group, no government uses its people as human battle fodder.

We have to start with simple fact the state of Israel has a right to exist and it will obviously continue after this war. Israel is going to continue to be Israel. We need to find a peace where Palestinians respect Israeli sovreignty and vice versa or this cycle of violence will continue.

Given the events of October 7th security is going to be an issue for Israel and therefore it would seem likely that a hard border of some form will have to exist as well as increased military presence along the Gaza border. We therefore have to address how best Gaza can be supported and developed to be a nascent state. I envisage that it will continue to be a city state and there will be a need for economic support for Arab neighbours as well as inward investment to aid the economy. If the economy of Gaza improves then removal of poverty will diminish the feelings amongst some of the population that terrorism is the only viable option.

I feel Egypt has a lot of input having the only other land border to Gaza other than Israel and so the international community must support Egypt in securing economic development for their neighbours in Gaza. If Gaza becomes a state then they will have to negotiate a new relationship with Israel based on peaceful co existence and maybe this God awful.violence may end.

Problem is that you lot are in an echo chamber of your own making
Constant arguing? All the time? Yep this boards an echo chamber all right 🙄

You’re right that very few anti Hamas/pro Israel posters come on to this board because immediately they are rounded upon and called ‘baby killer apologists’ or such like. The tone is so hyperbolic and so inflammatory what really is the point. Initially quite a few Jewish posters contributed but most of them have given up trying to join in.
They don’t have it any worse than the pro Palestinian posters who are accused of being antisemites and Hamas supporters. Nor do that the pro Israelis necessarily refrain from being inflammatory

Very few new threads actually on this dedicated board and they are invariably created by the same posters who hunt in a weird pack.
You’re being hunted now? What happens if you’re caught? Are you exposed to an opinion you don’t agree with?

Maybe if Israel stuck to their side of the treaty in 1967 and lived harmoniously with the Palestinians they would not be in that position. Palestine has lost more and more land with the illegal settlements year on year, how can anyone condone the Palestinians just getting tipped out of their houses, off their land, their crops destroyed by illegal armed settlers ? Seriously ? And yes don’t forget the land they stole from Lebanon too.

Idiots voting for Hamas have allowed Hamas to flourish, and foreign aid has allowed Hamas to flourish

Yeah that and the Israeli government propping them up.
Hamas took Gaza over by force btw they were not really elected.

Maybe if Israel stuck to their side of the treaty in 1967 and lived harmoniously with the Palestinians they would not be in that position. Palestine has lost more and more land with the illegal settlements year on year, how can anyone condone the Palestinians just getting tipped out of their houses, off their land, their crops destroyed by illegal armed settlers ? Seriously ? And yes don’t forget the land they stole from Lebanon too.

I was on another thread* *the other day and a poster (who I honestly would of expected to know better) was trying to tell me that the Jewish people were given Israel, Gaza and the West Bank in 1948 and the Palestinians were meant to go to Jordan. You have to wonder whether they actually believe that sort of thing.

As I stated in my previous posts, this did not start on 07 Oct. I think it’s pretty well understood that US has funded Israel’s war crimes to the tune of billions. I’ve had connections to the M.E for forty plus years and have spent many years there, I certainly didn’t get a sudden enlightenment, but it’s heartening to see the rest of the world finally seeing it.

What are you on about? I haven’t called anyone names. And how have I stifled any intelligent discussion? Bizarre

I can't comprehend it either. Israel won't stop until they kill all civilians and then occupy all the land. They don't care about human life, thousands of people killed including thousands of children. It's horrific and so heartbreaking watching the videos of children killed and injured and whole families wiped out.
They needed a ceasefire weeks ago.

What people have got to realise is reaching into history for this particular conflict doesn't help. Historical claims to land have caused other conflicts in the world e.g. Ukraine and with that logic we would entirely reverse world history and allow the indigenous populations of the US and Australia would be in ownership of their respective countries; you could even say Italy could lay claim to the UK as part of the Roman Empire.

We are where we are. Israel has a right to exist and has well defined state boundaries in much the same way the UK has definitive boundaries. Sovreignty is paramount.
If sovereign borders are respected there is a chance of a lasting peace What we there is no repeat of the ghastly conflict we are seeing. What I fear a lot of pro Palestinians wish is not just a ceasefire but the reduction and or even the entire removal of Israeli land which is in itself anti semitic.

Given that the winners of any conflict (and obviously it is Israel) have never in human history conceded land then we have to be realistic about the future boundaries within Israel i.e. the same boundaries exist with possibly a greater security zone to protect Israel from attacks such as October 7th. If this political and geographical reality is accepted then we can move onto a 2 state solution.

What I have found with many that support a cease fire from the Palestinian perspective is that the ceasefire is ultimately just a start to negotiations where Israel is effectively removed of land which is unrealistic. I also hazard a guess that if there is no boundary redress then a lot of those that are pro the Palesrtian cause would not object to continued armed 'resisitance ' such as seen on October 7th.

I if pro Palestinian groups whole heartedly denounced Hamas and were realistic about the parameters of a 2 state solution then I think there may be lot of concrete discussion of peace which obviously is already happening at an international level.

I put it to many on this board; how do you achieve lasting peace respecting Israel's sovereign rights currently? I'm addition how do you support the Gazan and West Bank economies to grow to alleviate hardship without some form of constructive long lasting peace agreement? I think the post was originally about stopping a vicious war so maybe we proceed on this basis?

Reasons vary, I support Israel despite not being Jewish as a symbol of anti Islamist fundamentalism.
Similarly you will find that many people don't actually care about children in Palestine, they support what Palestine represents to them

We also have to address hyperbolic language about Israel deliberately targeting civilian as this is wrong. If the Israeli states objective was to cause maximum civilian death they do have the means and those means have not been used. Although the civilian deaths are applying to see they are a fault of an on going campaign to remove enemy fighters/terrorists whose sole mission is the destruction of both Jews and Israel.

If we look at the map of the world in 1967 we had the Soviet union occupying a lot of Eastern European countries and states like Yugoslavia which no longer exist. We cannot turn the clock back to some rather arbitrary historical instance as how can you argue that one particular historical reality is more legitimate than the rest? Do we go back to pre WW2 days with the Palestinian mandate for instance?

Does anyone believe that after October the 7th Israel and the international community would support the expansion of Palestiinian lands to the detriment of Israel's sovreignty and security???

Alluding to the original post everyone wants peace, no one like to see the death of innocents neither Israeli or Palestinians but to achieve this peace we have to remove historical grievance and support of any group such as Hamas that wishes to terrorise Israel into loss of land. If we do not do this surely we are setting up ourselves for future war, future bloodshed, future woman and children being killed.

We actually look to have a ceasefire approaching the reason for which is what should have happened weeks ago i.e. the release of Israeli hostages mostly women and children. Perhaps the hostage releases can act as a spring board to Hamas laying down its arms to achieve a more permanent peacefire.

@Finlesswonder

I think your right the absolute disregard of human life by jihadi groups such as Hamas is well documented . I don't think anyone will mourning this groups passing and to that extent I support Israel's objectives while hoping that civilian casualties at minimised. It has to be said one way of minimising casualties is by not using hospitals and schools as military bases.

Katherine Blum's post is spot on. Fewer and fewer posters engage with these posts because, if they display any level of nuance, the accusations of baby killer or genocide are trotted out by posters who can only see in black and white.
I'm interested to know why they think that neighbouring countries have not come to the aid of the Palestinians. Egypt, for example, has enough problems with the Muslim Brotherhood, and has no interest in allowing Palestinians through its gates.
Palestine is seen as toxic in the ME.

Those determined to see this conflict in black and white terms should read this article, which provides some much-needed nuance. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/17/hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-ceasefire