Page 5 | Placards from marches in London (and graffitti) Part 2 **Title editedby MNHQ**

Jupitersstorm · 2023-11-14T14:17:59+00:00

Good afternoon, This thread:[[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/4931824-placards-from-antisemitic-marches-in-london?reply=130705682 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/4931824-placards-from-antisemitic-marches-in-london?reply=130705682&utm_source=brevo&utm_campaign=Mumsnet_Watched_Thread_Notification_New_Talk&utm_medium=email]] has reached 1k replies and has been closed as this is the maximum replies possible for a thread. This topic needs to be kept open especially as now grafitti has been found close to the route taken by Pro Palestinian marchers: [[https://news.sky.com/story/police-actively-looking-for-individuals-over-antisemitic-signs-at-pro-palestinian-march-13005665 https://news.sky.com/story/police-actively-looking-for-individuals-over-antisemitic-signs-at-pro-palestinian-march-13005665]] This is absolutely abhorrently anti-semitic.

XRAYTHIS · 10/12/2023 10:29

etmoiandme · 09/12/2023 23:42

At the same time, it’s an immense privilege to sit here and complain

It might be an immense privilege for you @HiggleDyPigGeldy but I don't think it was for this lady

https://twitter.com/Shomrim/status/1733557021650100517

This was in the UK where 2 school girls badly beat a Jewish woman and people walk on by. They look proud of what they have done. The UK is becoming a place where some people it's OK to say, chant, sing, wave placards calling for killing of Jewish people. Its very sad.

stomachameleon · 10/12/2023 10:40

@XRAYTHIS the irony of posting on here about debate being shut down on a ceasefire and negative feeling about the Israeli government on a thread addressing the negative reactions on the streets in London and calling for our demise both here and in Israel.

The killing of all Jewish people.....

Am going to stick to the thread.

Humdingerydoo · 10/12/2023 10:45

AngrySheep · 10/12/2023 09:49

There are seem to be quite a few posters who accuse anyone who even wants a ceasefire, as not caring about what Hamas have done, or even being pro-Hamas or antisemitic. Not either of you obviously, as you have just explained.

I think it’s possible to be appalled by both things at once, and to separate the ordinary Palestinian people from the actions of Hamas, and the ordinary Israelis from the actions of the Israeli government (and the IDF, who seem to be their army)

I can understand that it is a hugely emotive subject and that there is a long and complicated history and that people are defensive and scared, and ready to blame others.

I have seen social media posters who have called for a ceasefire , who have then been absolutely destroyed in the comments, had all sorts of abuse thrown their way and and accused of being antisemitic.

There seem to be groups, online anyway, who shout the loudest and want to shut anyone down who questions the Israeli government’s actions and behaviours (both now and historically) & the aim seems to be to silence anyone who ask questions or dares to disagree.

But those calling for a ceasefire - what are they actually saying? They're saying "Israel, stop your retaliation". None of them seem to be urging Hamas to lay down weapons, surrender or even release the hostages. That's what needs to be called for if you actually want peace in the region. I honestly thought we all would've been able to agree that if Hamas surrender, the war ends. But it seems we can't. People would rather put all the blame on Israel.

SomeCatFromJapan · 10/12/2023 12:07

This is my confusion with the calls for ceasefire as well. It's aimed exclusively at Israel. Throughout this, Hamas have been returning fire, and have been holding onto hostages.
Reading various of the threads in this section, one would be forgiven for thinking that Israel had attacked a small territory of only unarmed civilians, for no reason whatsoever beyond bloodlust.

SomeCatFromJapan · 10/12/2023 12:12

This little genius in Brighton didn't know that Israeli Arabs exist. You can see it not computing and Denial Mode kicks in :

https://twitter.com/HeidiBachram/status/1733791033253642737

AngrySheep · 10/12/2023 12:33

Humdingerydoo · 10/12/2023 10:45

But those calling for a ceasefire - what are they actually saying? They're saying "Israel, stop your retaliation". None of them seem to be urging Hamas to lay down weapons, surrender or even release the hostages. That's what needs to be called for if you actually want peace in the region. I honestly thought we all would've been able to agree that if Hamas surrender, the war ends. But it seems we can't. People would rather put all the blame on Israel.

Show quote history

I think the meaning of a ceasefire is that is stops on both sides, surely that is the only way to interpret the word?

Original poster

Jupitersstorm · 10/12/2023 12:37

backtowinter · 09/12/2023 22:45

@Jupitersstorm Even more bizarre that Mumsnet have changed it

So the match wasn't anti semitic then?

Yes I saw that this thread title has been changed. It is still my opinion that the marches have been tainted with much evidence of anti-Semitism.
Maybe a better thread title could be anti-Semitic placards, chants and graffiti from Pro Palestinian marches in London.

OP posts:

stomachameleon · 10/12/2023 12:38

@AngrySheep Hamas only need to release the hostages (or their bodies) and stop firing rockets from public areas to show willing.

It is a very one sided debate.

stomachameleon · 10/12/2023 12:38

@Jupitersstorm that's a good idea.

AngrySheep · 10/12/2023 12:43

What do you think Isreal with do next then, if that happens? @stomachameleon Is there a plan in place?

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 10/12/2023 15:41

But those calling for a ceasefire - what are they actually saying? They're saying "Israel, stop your retaliation". None of them seem to be urging Hamas to lay down weapons, surrender or even release the hostages

i guess the issue is that the current conflict (Israel’s retaliation as you put it) is killing Palestinian civilians in quite large numbers. That is the main reason people are so keen for it to stop. That said I don’t think anyone envisions a ceasefire where Hamas continues to fight. As a pp said that is not really a ceasefire.

SomeCatFromJapan · 10/12/2023 17:20

Where this situation is difficult is that I don't think any lasting peace, or anything beyond a temporary ceasefire, is achievable while Hamas is in control of Gaza.

I guess the Israelis are essentially going after regime change with the current military operation.
Unfortunately Gaza is a small land area containing a large number of people with Hamas phyically embedded in and below the infrastructure. So the results of the operationi are obviously horrific.

So what happens if there is indeed a ceasefire now, at this point? With Hamas still in control, it will just be rinse and repeat of attack and retaliation in an ongoing, horrific cycle. Not that I think the Israelis have any plans to ceasefire now, I've been following the actual operation to some extent and they seem to have taken most of Gaza now and be closing in on the remaining Hamas commanders, at least those in Gaza.

However as people have, rightly, pointed out, you can't kill an idea, and the senior leaders remain safe outwith the country.

Not that any of the above is critisism of any of you who are distressed or uncomfortable at the conflict, or feel that there must be a better way. I think one would need to be a psychopath not to be.

I've included a clip of Bernie Sanders saying what I've said (much more concisely!) so it's not just a right-wing viewpoint.

My other worry is potentially a legacy of both global hostility to Israel and much greater levels of anti-Semitism within society longer-term. I think it will be less fraught once the conflict is over and it is no longer in the news cycle, but the baseline might remain a lot higher. And I am not sure how that gets addressed. Tbh I do think that the same people that hate Israel will hate them even if they don't fire a single further shot.

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1733885042458562955

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 10/12/2023 17:38

I guess the Israelis are essentially going after regime change with the current military operation.
Unfortunately Gaza is a small land area containing a large number of people with Hamas phyically embedded in and below the infrastructure. So the results of the operationi are obviously horrific.

So what happens if there is indeed a ceasefire now, at this point? With Hamas still in control, it will just be rinse and repeat of attack and retaliation in an ongoing, horrific cycle

Whats interesting is that you describe both the loss of life in Gaza and in the Hamas attacks as horrific yet a lot of people on this board (not necessarily you) would expect people shrug off the former and be dismayed only by the latter.

Trulywonderful · 10/12/2023 17:49

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 10/12/2023 17:38

I guess the Israelis are essentially going after regime change with the current military operation.
Unfortunately Gaza is a small land area containing a large number of people with Hamas phyically embedded in and below the infrastructure. So the results of the operationi are obviously horrific.

So what happens if there is indeed a ceasefire now, at this point? With Hamas still in control, it will just be rinse and repeat of attack and retaliation in an ongoing, horrific cycle

Whats interesting is that you describe both the loss of life in Gaza and in the Hamas attacks as horrific yet a lot of people on this board (not necessarily you) would expect people shrug off the former and be dismayed only by the latter.

Thanks a lot

(Rolling eyes)

Trulywonderful · 10/12/2023 17:49

'They ask him to take it down. Not because it is a racist hate crime, but because of the optics: “it looks bad for us”.'

https://twitter.com/hearnimator/status/1733855181358379426

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 10/12/2023 18:33

Thanks a lot

(Rolling eyes)

No need to take it personally Truly 😂