Placards from marches in London (and graffitti) Part 2 **Title editedby MNHQ**

[Jupitersstorm]

Good afternoon,

This thread:https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/4931824-placards-from-antisemitic-marches-in-london?reply=130705682&utm_source=brevo&utm_campaign=Mumsnet_Watched_Thread_Notification_New_Talk&utm_medium=email

has reached 1k replies and has been closed as this is the maximum replies possible for a thread.

This topic needs to be kept open especially as now grafitti has been found close to the route taken by Pro Palestinian marchers:

https://news.sky.com/story/police-actively-looking-for-individuals-over-antisemitic-signs-at-pro-palestinian-march-13005665

This is absolutely abhorrently anti-semitic.

@Jupitersstorm Even more bizarre that Mumsnet have changed it

So the match wasn't anti semitic then?

It would appear JVL got kettled today.

https://twitter.com/conradlandin/status/1733483758840349004

I tend to agree that the UK is sadly becoming more antisemitic at the moment and a lot of this can be blamed on Netanyahu’s narrative that his actions are in the name of all Jews.
Lines are becoming blurred and not everyone remembers that Jewish does not equate to Israeli (just as Palestinian does not mean Hamas supporter). And Israeli does not mean pro actions of the government of Israel.

Many Jewish people here oppose the killing in Gaza by the Israeli state. Many have taken part in marches including the ones in London. I attended one of them and at no point did I feel threatened or uncomfortable even though there were very diverse groups in attendance, some different to me, and some similar (british / european / white families with young children).
It is sad and unfair that peaceful Jewish people all around the world may be perceived as racists and genocide apologists just because of our religion, when in fact religion has nothing to do with the actions of Israeli politicians.
At the same time, it’s an immense privilege to sit here and complain about this when elsewhere in the world nine out of ten Gazans are going hungry, people in Israel are grappling with the loss of loved ones and absence of hostages, and tens of thousands in Gaza are dead.

That made me chuckle

@Trulywonderful Same.

I tend to agree that the UK is sadly becoming more antisemitic at the moment and a lot of this can be blamed on Netanyahu’s narrative that his actions are in the name of all Jews.

You spelled "a lot of this can be blamed on antisemites" wrong.

Jewish = Religion

Anyone else see the error here

Just saying 🤔

Think we may have JVL in the building 😂

At the same time, it’s an immense privilege to sit here and complain

It might be an immense privilege for you @HiggleDyPigGeldy but I don't think it was for this lady

https://twitter.com/Shomrim/status/1733557021650100517

True though the man is vile he isn't the cause of antisemitism

Antisemitism is on the rise because antisemitic fuckwits will always follow other antisemitic fuckwits

That has always been the way throughout history and it always will be the way

Jewish people even vile idiot ones do not cause antisemitism. Jew hating people cause antisemitism.

In this case Hamas the proxy of Iran caused antisemitism to rise and other Jew haters have continued to support and fan this hate.

Regular non racist people don't suddenly turn into racists in a few weeks. You have to have that somewhere within you or been raised with it and don't know better

I feel an attack of the 'jewsplaining' coming on....

@Trulywonderful Sure I get what you are saying but to me right now it is a religion and I don’t want it to be more than that, partly because I feel British first, and partly because there are other elements of my identity I actively choose to prioritise. Also because I don’t feel represented by the state of Israel.
I married someone from another religion and another country. My mother was also brought up in a multicultural neighbourhood with strong ties to her local community.
Many people around me think my voice is not valid because of these choices. I don’t really care.

The fact you don't know what a Jewish person is

You suggest it is just a religion

Then you suggest it equates to Israel if more than a religion

Seriously if you are coming mumsnet saying that you are Jewish at least learn what a Jewish person is. That is my tip to you

Is it the Zionist part that is antisemitic?

At least they might go and do a little research to learn what Jewish people are etc

I don't ask for much from these people but don't try to claim anything unless you know even some basic facts or have some understanding

I could have corrected the poster I suppose but then they wohave said whoops I miss wrote that. Better to let them write a second post and show again they don't actually know what a Jew is.

Zionist part of what?

Which post are you talking about?

This one.

That is a genuine question - as I don’t understand why criticism of Israel is automatically antisemitic.

Not all Jews live in Israel do they? And not everyone in Israel in Jewish, I don’t think? And I assume that there are lots of Jewish people, living in Israel or otherwise, who don’t support the occupation or bombings - therefore, why is criticism of Israel’s government automatically antisemitism?

Sorry @Trulywonderful , it’s not appearing in that post.

This is the one from the OP

Adding to this, not all Jewish people are Zionists are they?

That is a genuine question - as I don’t understand why criticism of Israel is automatically antisemitic.

therefore, why is criticism of Israel’s government automatically antisemitism?

@AngrySheep It's not. Criticism of Israel isn't antisemitism. But it's convenient for a lot of non-Jews to tell us we're crying antisemitism at the mere criticism of the Israeli govt when we are quite simply not doing this - while I don't doubt you could find a few that will say it is, for the most part Jews do not think or say this. This has been explained on here over and over though. It's exhausting to repeatedly have those words put in our mouths for us.

And yes a majority of Jewish people actually are Zionists, at some level, although it has different meanings for different Jews. And also yes, a lot of Jewish people don't support the bombings. I don't. Nor do I support occupation and expansion in the WB.

Sure Jup will answer your question in her own way etc as that post was theirs

I can't answer for her and she will have her own thoughts or opinions etc that may differ from mine.

My opinion is this:

*It isn't antisemitism to criticize the Israeli government so long as you don't use Jewish related words or phrases or tropes. So no nazis, holocaust, etc

*If you ask for the dismantling of a state containing 9 million Jewish & Arab people that is effectively asking for ethnic cleansing or genocide. Which is exactly the same as some say Israel is doing. Most those citizens especially the middle eastern Jews have already experienced this in their own states. So it can be argued this could be antisemitism

*The use of the word Zionist if used to replace the word Jew in old revised nazi propaganda as we have seen in older protesters is antisemitism

The use of the word Zionist is most the time used wrong anyway. Zionism is part of the daily prayer religious Jews say every day and has been for hundreds of years.. The belief to live somewhere safe and be free to just be Jewish. There is a Zionist movement that is more political and that is what most protesters are talking about. So they should say political Zionism or just the Israeli government. However some like to use the word Zionist like it is an insult. Whereas it really isn't because around 84% of the world's Jews are Zionist. They all vary in opinion from being anti Israeli government to being very pro Israel government plus everything inbetween. Most people that are anti Zionist normally fall into two categories, they don't actually know what a Zionist is other than social media rubbish or they are antisemitic

Also everyone thinks that modern/political Zionism was a European endeavor, but the OGs of this Zionism are Yemeni Jews who made the dangerous track in 1868, 30 yrs before the first world Zionist congress. They built roads, cities, fought in WWIII, and had a massive impact on Jewish life in Israel.

A group seen at the protests

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12845685/Government-ban-Islamic-extremist-group-Hizb-ut-Tahrir-jihad-anti-Israel-rally.html

You said it way better than me!

Most people that are anti Zionist normally fall into two categories, they don't actually know what a Zionist is other than social media rubbish or they are antisemitic

This 100%. And I would even include some Jews in that.

@Trulywonderful & @etmoiandme , thank you both for taking the time to explain.

There are seem to be quite a few posters who accuse anyone who even wants a ceasefire, as not caring about what Hamas have done, or even being pro-Hamas or antisemitic. Not either of you obviously, as you have just explained.

I think it’s possible to be appalled by both things at once, and to separate the ordinary Palestinian people from the actions of Hamas, and the ordinary Israelis from the actions of the Israeli government (and the IDF, who seem to be their army)

I can understand that it is a hugely emotive subject and that there is a long and complicated history and that people are defensive and scared, and ready to blame others.

I have seen social media posters who have called for a ceasefire , who have then been absolutely destroyed in the comments, had all sorts of abuse thrown their way and and accused of being antisemitic.

There seem to be groups, online anyway, who shout the loudest and want to shut anyone down who questions the Israeli government’s actions and behaviours (both now and historically) & the aim seems to be to silence anyone who ask questions or dares to disagree.