My question to you

[whatswrongwiththeworldddd]

If Hamas was hiding in Tel Aviv, would it be acceptable to indiscriminately bomb Tel Aviv killing 4000 children, 10000 civilians, 24 journalists and 70 UN colleagues?

If a school shooter was hiding out In a classroom, when would it ever be morally accepted to bomb the entire school?

It is a false analogy. If Hamas were hiding in London (some of them are, at least retired ones, one lives in a council house not far from me no doubt at tax payer expense) we would not bomb them here. If however we were at war with Germany we might well bomb, as we did, the whole of Dresden as the greater good is in stopping a war; same when the Allies dropped the H bomb on Japan- we kill a lot but it is for the greater good. I hope Israel win.

They prayed in a synagogue in Gaza? And then filmed it and put it up?
There are already accusations flying around that Israel want to take over and occupy
If you notice Biden has said it many times this week that he would oppose this. The US emphasising this more than once is not insignificant

@Xenia hello xenia
I don't think dropping the H Bomb on Japan is a proud moment in history to look back on
Also certainly not an analogy even the pro Israelis would probably agree with on here to be fair

Should've guessed someone would take issue with the synagogue thing.

Yes, they prayed in an ancient synagogue. It's about 1500 years old. Them praying in it isn't the same as them reclaiming the land though.

Them putting up flags is a different kettle of fish though. I agree that looks absolutely awful. I hope it's "just" them showing off. I don't condone it. I think it's an incredibly stupid (trying not to use offensive language 🙈) thing to do.

No one could accuse the IDF of using civilians as human shields because they have a HQ exactly like you just said, meaning that their military bases can be targeted. Hamas use tunnels under hospitals and schools as military bases to try and prevent their bases being bombed hence using those civilians as shields to protect themselves, which is illegal in international law.

@Humdingerydoo well it does re inforce that Israel does want to re occupy Gaza
Especially after the heartbreaking scenes we are seeing
Which is essentially ethnic cleansing although you may disagree

Trying to use imaginary events is never a good way to* *build an argument for debate. 🤦‍♂️

It's called Hypothesis Contrary To Fact Fallacy. A fallacy is an error in reasoning and logic.

Better to deal with the actual reality - Hamas are embedded deeply into local Gazan society, built an extensive terrorist network underground beneath civilian infrastructure and known to use civilians as human shields. In addition, Hamas are known to transport explosives underneath UN run schools as well as store weapons in them. Ditto hospitals.

With a group like Hamas, high civilian deaths is unavoidable.

There are two things to consider here - acceptability under morality and acceptability under Law Of Armed Conflict (LOAC). Two very different things and one of these is used in the practical reality of warfare whereas the other one isn't.

I do disagree. I guess we'll have to wait and see, and hope that I'm right.

Either way, I genuinely do mourn the innocent casualties. It's not the children's fault that Hamas has made their schools, scout hubs etc a target. And I'm not saying that to prove a point or get a last minute little jab in, this is just genuinely how I feel. It feels very conflicting to think Israel needs to go in and get rid of Hamas but also not want innocent people to suffer as a result, knowing full well they were always going to end up suffering.

@Humdingerydoo
Actually, they are living out their fantasy of obliterating Palestinians in Gaza. It's no secret. All it takes is a quick read of their political party's position on issues. They are a far-right, ultra-nationalist,Jewish supremacist, party (their words, not mine) and they have been open about their aspirations from well before October 7th:

-They have stated that they do not believe in a 2 state solution, and want rule all the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea (i.e. 'from the river to the sea' - guess it's not a racist phrase when they use it) without Palestinians there.

-They are against the formation of a Palestinian state, and advocate cancelling the Oslo peace accords.

-I couldn't find anything about their compassion for Palestinian civilians and children. But Bezel Smotrich has said that inside Israel, he supports segregation of Arab and Jewish women in hospital maternity wards because "my wife would not want to lie down next to someone who just gave birth to a baby that might want to murder her baby in another 20 years."
Maybe is is that mindset that allows them to murder so many children in such obscene numbers.

@Parkingt111, @Xenia didn't suggest the nuclear bomb was a "proud moment in history" though.

They argued that was done for "the greater good" meaning it ended WW2 in Asia.

Important not to build a Strawman.

I can't ever imagine calling that a greater good or even thinking of it like that but I suppose that's my own opinion

Oh and @DownNative remember when i asked you previously what you thought about the civilian casualty count
The US is now saying it could possibly be higher than Hamas figures

One thing I am disgusted by is how useless IDF are at apparently "getting rid of Hamas" when they have gotten rid of 60 or so Hamas members out of 10k plus killed including over half of those children and women. I mean WTF. In what world is that justifiable? It's not. Face up to it.

And I don't doubt for a second that actual figures are way higher than being reported.

No, on the contrary the use of local Gazans as human shields DOES have value for Hamas in terms of what's called Lawfare.

For the layman, in terms of propaganda. Think about it much more seriously than you have. 🤦‍♂️

Nato StratCom COE identified this in their 2019 reported attached and quoted below:

"...Hamas employs the best of both worlds: if indeed the IDF uses kinetic force on a massive scale, and the number of civilian causalities surges, Hamas will be able to use that as a weapon in the lawfare it conducts. It will be able to accuse the IDF (and Israel) of committing war crimes, which in turn could result in a wide array of sanctions.

On the other hand, if the IDF limits its use of military force in Gaza in order to avoid collateral damage, Hamas will be less susceptible to Israeli attacks, thus protecting its assets, while continuing to fight."

And:

"Hamas’ use of legal instruments to restrict Israel’s actions exploits the legal asymmetry between Israel and Hamas. When Hamas claims that Israel violates the Geneva Convention, Israel experiences condemnation from the international community that results in both short-term and long-term reputational losses. Hamas skilfully manages to prolong reputational losses for Israel by effectively using the time it takes to have cases heard and adjudicated to their advantage."

So, no, your comment that "human shield rhetoric is beyond tiring and makes zero sense" doesn't stand, isn't well thought out and is simply demonstrating an ignorance of how a terrorist group like Hamas actually works.

For all States in the position Israel is in, terrorist groups in the 21st Century are hybrid threats and able to put States in very difficult positions.

The phrase "between a rock and a hard place" comes to mind!

🤦‍♂️

@whatswrongwiththeworldddd in answer to your op, of course its not acceptable.

But you will get certain posters on here determined to twist the narrative and make excuses for what is happening.

They convince no one.

You have to understand the practical reality of warfare before anything else.

If WW2 been able to go on for longer than 1945, more lives would have been taken. Allied forces were also on the brink of exhaustion, so this has to be considered.

All in all, the atomic bomb ended WW2 completely with no further loss of life - military AND civilian.

War is about practicality as is LOAC.

Fair enough, you can't be on bothsides for what so ever reasons. I am with gazan not because I think they are innocent , noone is innocent in this world.

I am against right wing Jews on mumsnet, as just their words making me upset. When Israel is bombing heavily and tens of thousands being thrown out, Jews here still attacking gaza sympathisers is --- just equal to -> people who celebrated on 07th october. People who personally effected in Israel is questioning Nethanyahu, not hamas mainly.

Ok so firstly, I think you need to not say you're against Jews on Mumsnet. It comes across as anti-semitic. Not everyone supporting Israel on here is Jewish. I am, others are not. So just be careful with your language.

I don't think it's fair to say that people defending Israels right to defend itself is the same as people celebrating the massacre in Israel. I don't take any joy in the deaths of Palestinians. I mourn them.

Netanyahu was only voted in with like 23% or something along those lines. He does not represent the majority of Israelis, so naturally those directly affected by 7th October are going to not agree with a lot of the stuff he says and does. People still blame Hamas though - don't pretend they don't. Israelis know exactly who and what Hamas are.

This conflict is not comparable to WW2.

Those tunnels were built not so Hamas could get commercial items into Gaza since legal checked routes were available.

No, those tunnels were built so weapons capabilities could be smuggled in to Gaza to be put together by Hamas. Material sent from Iran, no less.

Egypt eventually destroyed the extensive tunnel network across the Sinai Peninsula which then meant Hamas had to learn to manufacture their own weapons inside Gaza as they boasted.

"Security in the area around Rafah is also of concern to Egypt because Sinai has been the site of an Islamist insurgency that flared a decade ago. Hamas, which has run the Gaza Strip since 2007, shares the Islamist ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood, a movement outlawed in Egypt."

And:

"Hamas' deadly attack on southern Israel six days ago - unprecedented for the group in its planning and scale - was a devastating demonstration of the military expertise it has gained since seizing control of Gaza in 2007....

Necessity is the mother of invention," said Ali Baraka, a senior Hamas official, adding that the group had long drawn on money and training from Iran and Iranian regional proxies like Lebanon's Hezbollah, while bolstering its own forces in Gaza.

Difficulties in importing weapons meant that over the past nine years "we developed our capabilities and are able to manufacture locally", said Baraka, who is based in Lebanon....

In the 2008 Gaza war, Hamas rockets had a maximum range of 40 km (25 miles), but that had risen to 230 km by the 2021 conflict, he added.

After the most recent Gaza war in 2021, Hamas and an affiliated group called Palestinian Islamic Jihad managed to retain 40% of their missile inventories, a key target of the Israelis, according to the U.S. based non-profit Jewish Institute for National Security of America, keeping roughly 11,750 missiles compared with 23,000 before the conflict."

www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/bombardments-hit-area-gaza-sinai-border-crossing-gaza-officials-2023-10-10/

Let's not disingenuously suggest any other purpose for Hamas' extensive tunnel network, hey?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-tunnels-egypt-idUKBRE91P0UV20130226

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/10/28/hamas-tunnels-to-egypt-played-key-role-in-arming-hamas/

Egypt eventually destroyed a whopping 97% of Hamas tunnels across the Sinai Peninsula. 🤔

This is the most stupid hypothetical I’ve ever seen. Actual five year old level of understanding of the situation.

I don't see how any of that proves that tunnels were not used to bring in basic necessities during a 16-year siege.