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Conflict in the Middle East
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40
Whoha · 07/11/2023 15:42

Does anyone have a better plan of action for Israel?
They need to do whatever it takes to get rid of Hamas in order to protect their citizens!

FOJN · 07/11/2023 16:05

From Aljazeera as no one else is offering rolling coverage.

Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant says that at the end of the war, the Israeli army will have absolute freedom of action in Gaza. The comment comes after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told ABC News Israel would take responsibility for security in Gaza for an “indefinite period”.

This is the man who said Israel would cut all food, water and power to Gaza because "we are fighting human animals and will act accordingly".

I can't imagine that the IDF having "absolute freedom of action" means anything good for Gaza.

ProvincialLady1 · 07/11/2023 16:07

EasterIssland · 07/11/2023 15:12

If you destroy hamas then why do you need to control the security of another country than

I'm not arguing they should control it, but clearly something needs to be put in place for security and governance, as well as rebuilding.

ProvincialLady1 · 07/11/2023 16:09

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 15:17

I would love for the people who insist that this is just Isrsel protecting themselves and that it is all about catching Hamas to watch Motazs instagram stories from an hour ago where he runs to building that has just been bombed and tell me what part of that looks like protection or catching Hamas. What part of the mums screaming hysterically for their children is about protecting Israelis? What part of the toddler being pulled limp from the rubble is about catching Hamas? I don't get it. I just see acts of terror and a massacre. I would genuinely, really love to know how that scene is protecting Israelis? Because I don't get it? I don't understand what those screaming mums, what those terrified children, what that poor toddler are doing to Israel that is so bad they need this to happen to them to protect Israelis from them.

You are not a serious person.

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 16:24

ProvincialLady1 · 07/11/2023 16:09

You are not a serious person.

I'm deadly serious but I will take your snarky reply to mean that you don't have any words to defend the indefensible. I get it, trust me. I don't understand how anyone can defend it either.

Ohlalalalala · 07/11/2023 16:25

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 15:17

I would love for the people who insist that this is just Isrsel protecting themselves and that it is all about catching Hamas to watch Motazs instagram stories from an hour ago where he runs to building that has just been bombed and tell me what part of that looks like protection or catching Hamas. What part of the mums screaming hysterically for their children is about protecting Israelis? What part of the toddler being pulled limp from the rubble is about catching Hamas? I don't get it. I just see acts of terror and a massacre. I would genuinely, really love to know how that scene is protecting Israelis? Because I don't get it? I don't understand what those screaming mums, what those terrified children, what that poor toddler are doing to Israel that is so bad they need this to happen to them to protect Israelis from them.

Exactly 😔
I no longer watch, at all.

OP posts:
OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 16:27

Whoha · 07/11/2023 15:42

Does anyone have a better plan of action for Israel?
They need to do whatever it takes to get rid of Hamas in order to protect their citizens!

So they get a free pass to kill 1000s of someone else's citizens? Israel have already before this October killed far more of Palestinians citizens than have been killed in Israel. Does that mean you agree that Hamas also can do whatever they want to defend their citizens? If not why not?

HeidiInTheBigCity · 07/11/2023 16:28

Whoha · 07/11/2023 15:42

Does anyone have a better plan of action for Israel?
They need to do whatever it takes to get rid of Hamas in order to protect their citizens!

Apart from the fact that the cost in human lives is absolutely horrific and utterly unacceptable, Israel´s actions are downright stupid from a long-term, strategic point of view - and not only for Israel!

The more suffering they cause, the more people will hate them! A whole generation of Gazan children, right now, is learning a hands-on lessons that is hard to understand as anything other than "Israel is the devil"! Do you think they will grow up and happily sing along to the Hatikvah? Or is Israel playing a hands-on role in forming the ideology of a new Hamas?

More globally speaking: a whole generation of young people, globally, is growing up and learning the same! They are not getting their news from the BBC but from TikTok, from Twitter, and from Telegram Channels where the unfiltered horror is visible to everyone and anyone. (I am actually deeply worried for them - as well as for adults because secondary trauma is a thing!). They are currently growing up and learning that Israel must be utterly and completely evil.

And minorities, people in the Global South, are watching and learning something else, too: specifically, that Western powers would be more than happy for them to be slaughtered, and that the entirety of the supposed Western value system is nothing but hypocrisy and lies. So ... why not prefer China over the US?! Iran over the UK?

... and I am not saying that all of this is, in fact, true. My own takes are a lot more nuanced than this. But you only have to follow social media to see an alarming rise not only in anti-Israeli but also more general anti-Western sentiment happening live! This will not "just go away" again. Again: secondary trauma exists, and trauma has a way of burning itself into everything we are, believe, and say!

This is, in fact, all very dangerous both for Israel and for the so-called liberal consensus.

... and that is, literally, just mostly the bombing! I have not even touched upon the brutally inhumane medieval siege tactics of cutting people off food and water - that is not even really tactically useful in the short term (but does one hell of a job on the "Israel is evil" propaganda front)!

Finally, while many will not be seeing it like this right now, the current strategy is also just bad for Israeli identity in the long term. Eventually, some sort of consensus will emerge that, yes, this was, in fact just horrifically wrong! Because it is. And because, after the war is over, Western governments will want to return ASAP to the pretense of being in favour of such things such as international law and human rights. So PhD theses will be written, documentaries will be produced , politicians who are no longer in office will be written off as the evil ones who let it happen and the ones still in office will find some sort of an excuse about how some of the facts were not immediately clear and, in hindight, ... it was different then ... whatever! Unless they can just get away with never mentioning it again, of course! Because this will be necessary to keep the system stable! This is precisely what has happened after every single Western-backed atrocity! But this narrative generally needs a scapegoat! And it will have to be Israelis. You see, I work with a lot of Germans, and Germans have somehow, literally, had to shape their national identity around the fact that they committed the holocaust. They have a word for this. They call it "Tätergesellschaft" (perpetrator society). They also have "Vergangenheitsbewältigung", which roughly means "coming to terms with the past". And while I am absolutely not - just to make this crystal clear - in any way, shape or form equating Gaza 2023 with Germany 1941, narratives tend not to care that much about facts. I wish future Israelis a better future than "people whose identity re-shapes to revolve around the fact that their ancestors did the unspeakable"!

That is why! Or, some of the reasons why!

Yes, there are better options, for example:

  1. Ceasefire
  2. Hostage exchange
  3. UN peacekeepers (or some other international force - the point is: Israel cannot
  4. The arrest and prosecution of those responsible (and, yes, that has to include Israelis)
  5. Good faith negotiations for a political settlement

This is not going to happen, mind, and I know it! But it would be far, far, far better in terms of a response - not just for Palestinians, but also Israelis. For us all!

It could happen, but for it to happen, Netanyahu needs to be removed as PM!

EDIT: oh, yikes! I wrote an essay!

Ohlalalalala · 07/11/2023 16:34

ProvincialLady1 · 07/11/2023 16:09

You are not a serious person.

Why not? I would love to understand too. Israel's have the most advanced spying capabilities, why don't they use these to fish out Hamas instead of raining bombs on densely populated areas without regard to human life and killing people in the thousands?

OP posts:
Jupitersstorm · 07/11/2023 16:40

Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 15:17

Ah like how you pointed out yesterday if biden was annoyed or 'seriously annoyed', was that another incorrect fact you wanted to point out?
You will find when you are rude and condescending even if you have a point there will be few people who are willing to engage with you. UN saying they believe Gaza is still under a form of occupation is a fact

And you can stop tagging me as this will be my last response to you

Edited

I was replying to your comment - it's not a private conversation. You are of course, within your rights not to reply to me. I wasn't looking for an interchange with you either - merely that I will continue -like other people do - to comment on other people's posts and if I feel there are inaccuracies, I will continue to say so. This doesn't make me hostile at all.

Ohlalalalala · 07/11/2023 17:24

HeidiInTheBigCity · 07/11/2023 16:28

Apart from the fact that the cost in human lives is absolutely horrific and utterly unacceptable, Israel´s actions are downright stupid from a long-term, strategic point of view - and not only for Israel!

The more suffering they cause, the more people will hate them! A whole generation of Gazan children, right now, is learning a hands-on lessons that is hard to understand as anything other than "Israel is the devil"! Do you think they will grow up and happily sing along to the Hatikvah? Or is Israel playing a hands-on role in forming the ideology of a new Hamas?

More globally speaking: a whole generation of young people, globally, is growing up and learning the same! They are not getting their news from the BBC but from TikTok, from Twitter, and from Telegram Channels where the unfiltered horror is visible to everyone and anyone. (I am actually deeply worried for them - as well as for adults because secondary trauma is a thing!). They are currently growing up and learning that Israel must be utterly and completely evil.

And minorities, people in the Global South, are watching and learning something else, too: specifically, that Western powers would be more than happy for them to be slaughtered, and that the entirety of the supposed Western value system is nothing but hypocrisy and lies. So ... why not prefer China over the US?! Iran over the UK?

... and I am not saying that all of this is, in fact, true. My own takes are a lot more nuanced than this. But you only have to follow social media to see an alarming rise not only in anti-Israeli but also more general anti-Western sentiment happening live! This will not "just go away" again. Again: secondary trauma exists, and trauma has a way of burning itself into everything we are, believe, and say!

This is, in fact, all very dangerous both for Israel and for the so-called liberal consensus.

... and that is, literally, just mostly the bombing! I have not even touched upon the brutally inhumane medieval siege tactics of cutting people off food and water - that is not even really tactically useful in the short term (but does one hell of a job on the "Israel is evil" propaganda front)!

Finally, while many will not be seeing it like this right now, the current strategy is also just bad for Israeli identity in the long term. Eventually, some sort of consensus will emerge that, yes, this was, in fact just horrifically wrong! Because it is. And because, after the war is over, Western governments will want to return ASAP to the pretense of being in favour of such things such as international law and human rights. So PhD theses will be written, documentaries will be produced , politicians who are no longer in office will be written off as the evil ones who let it happen and the ones still in office will find some sort of an excuse about how some of the facts were not immediately clear and, in hindight, ... it was different then ... whatever! Unless they can just get away with never mentioning it again, of course! Because this will be necessary to keep the system stable! This is precisely what has happened after every single Western-backed atrocity! But this narrative generally needs a scapegoat! And it will have to be Israelis. You see, I work with a lot of Germans, and Germans have somehow, literally, had to shape their national identity around the fact that they committed the holocaust. They have a word for this. They call it "Tätergesellschaft" (perpetrator society). They also have "Vergangenheitsbewältigung", which roughly means "coming to terms with the past". And while I am absolutely not - just to make this crystal clear - in any way, shape or form equating Gaza 2023 with Germany 1941, narratives tend not to care that much about facts. I wish future Israelis a better future than "people whose identity re-shapes to revolve around the fact that their ancestors did the unspeakable"!

That is why! Or, some of the reasons why!

Yes, there are better options, for example:

  1. Ceasefire
  2. Hostage exchange
  3. UN peacekeepers (or some other international force - the point is: Israel cannot
  4. The arrest and prosecution of those responsible (and, yes, that has to include Israelis)
  5. Good faith negotiations for a political settlement

This is not going to happen, mind, and I know it! But it would be far, far, far better in terms of a response - not just for Palestinians, but also Israelis. For us all!

It could happen, but for it to happen, Netanyahu needs to be removed as PM!

EDIT: oh, yikes! I wrote an essay!

Edited

Thanks @HeidiInTheBigCity for your input. Interesting analysis.

OP posts:
Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 17:35

@HeidiInTheBigCity that was an excellent and insightful post

pulka · 07/11/2023 17:43

The sheer bloodlust from those defending the continual bombing of Gazan civilians on these threads is revolting. I cannot fathom how humans can think like this. Or how the bombing of civilians can in any way be called self defence, or how it could be helpful for creating peace for both Israel and Palestine. I cannot fathom how anyone can look at the images coming from Gaza, of children and babies in shock or bleeding or being carried in their parents arms, and think of any excuse at all that this is fair or that they deserve this because 'Hamas!'. Some of the excusing and whataboutery is completely sick to be honest.

Carlalane · 07/11/2023 17:47

pulka · 07/11/2023 17:43

The sheer bloodlust from those defending the continual bombing of Gazan civilians on these threads is revolting. I cannot fathom how humans can think like this. Or how the bombing of civilians can in any way be called self defence, or how it could be helpful for creating peace for both Israel and Palestine. I cannot fathom how anyone can look at the images coming from Gaza, of children and babies in shock or bleeding or being carried in their parents arms, and think of any excuse at all that this is fair or that they deserve this because 'Hamas!'. Some of the excusing and whataboutery is completely sick to be honest.

Blood lust! Get over yourself. 🙄

ProvincialLady1 · 07/11/2023 17:53

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 16:24

I'm deadly serious but I will take your snarky reply to mean that you don't have any words to defend the indefensible. I get it, trust me. I don't understand how anyone can defend it either.

I defend any nation's right to defend themselves against avowed terrorists sitting on their doorstep with millions (if not billions) of dollars worth of military equipment promising to continue to commit atrocities against them ad infinitum.

Here is an article you may find useful as to the nature and legality of this type of warfare:

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/07/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-not-war-crimes-spencer/index.html

A couple of exerpts for those interested:

"There is no escaping that pursuing a terrorist organization touches off a nightmarish landscape of war. The visually repulsive imagery in Gaza essentially recreates the same scenes that unfolded under American and allied campaigns fighting Al Qaeda, ISIS and other terror groups, because that is what it looks like when you are forced to uproot a sadistic terror organization embedded in an urban area."

"Like all similar conflicts in modern times, a battle in Gaza will look like the entire city was purposely razed to the ground or indiscriminately carpet bombed – but it wasn’t. Israel possesses the military capacity to do so, and the fact that it doesn’t employ such means is further evidence that it is respecting the rules of war. It is also a sign that this is not revenge – a gross mischaracterization of Israeli aims – but instead a careful defensive campaign to ensure Israel’s survival."

Opinion: I’m an expert in urban warfare. Israel is upholding the laws of war | CNN

During Israel’s attack on Gaza, the destruction and suffering, as awful as they are, don’t automatically constitute war crimes – otherwise, nearly any military action in a populated area would violate the laws of armed conflict by John Spencer

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/07/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-not-war-crimes-spencer/index.html

Ohlalalalala · 07/11/2023 17:54

pulka · 07/11/2023 17:43

The sheer bloodlust from those defending the continual bombing of Gazan civilians on these threads is revolting. I cannot fathom how humans can think like this. Or how the bombing of civilians can in any way be called self defence, or how it could be helpful for creating peace for both Israel and Palestine. I cannot fathom how anyone can look at the images coming from Gaza, of children and babies in shock or bleeding or being carried in their parents arms, and think of any excuse at all that this is fair or that they deserve this because 'Hamas!'. Some of the excusing and whataboutery is completely sick to be honest.

True.

OP posts:
pulka · 07/11/2023 17:58

@Carlalane thank you for your insightful input.

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 18:05

further evidence that it is respecting the rules of war

I read this line from your copy and paste and won't go any further. Israel aren't respecting the rules of war. We know that. I'm not reading more people lying and trying to justify the unjustifiable, there's more than enough of that on here. Appreciate the effort though, gold star ⭐️

Carlalane · 07/11/2023 18:05

Great article @ProvincialLady1. I agree in its entirety.

Carlalane · 07/11/2023 18:09

This reply has been deleted

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Ohlalalalala · 07/11/2023 18:11

@ProvincialLady1 🙄

A lethal misconception, in Gaza and beyond: disguising indiscriminate attacks as potentially proportionate in discourses on the laws of war
Blog of the European Journal of International Law

https://www.ejiltalk.org/a-lethal-misconception-in-gaza-and-beyond-disguising-indiscriminate-attacks-as-potentially-proportionate-in-discourses-on-the-laws-of-war/

Some exerpts:

"In recent years and, despite the reality, in the last weeks, a trend among laws of armed conflict scholars has consolidated. This trend is in antithesis to the choral denunciation of mass civilian victimization as unlawful and criminal in other conflict theatres (such as, agreeably, in relation to the war against Ukraine). In contrast, bombing campaigns in Gaza have attracted and continue to attract the highest volume of academic commentaries emphasizing the limits of and derogations to civilian immunity from attacks. The ‘unfortunate/tragic but probably proportionate civilian loss of life’ formula has been repeated by countless analyses.

Notwithstanding the structural illegalities of this conflict, it is not new to read abundance of legal commentaries embracing the prism of the potential lawfulness of the killing of crowds of Palestinian civilians. However, what is new is that the embracement of this same prism of validations continues unabated while the killing of besieged, displaced, healthcare-denied and increasingly starving civilians in Gaza assumes shocking proportions by the minute. This trend continues despite top Israeli officials announced this offensive denying the existence itself of innocent civilians, and despite IDF spokespersons made clear this campaign had no accuracy priority.

This post (synthetizing some arguments of a longer article) submits that the described legitimizing prism reproduces some serious misconceptions, particularly on how we should construe the relationship between distinction and proportionality under customary IHL.

Many analyses seem to have so far unduly overexpanded proportionality into the realm of distinction, contributing to the current failure of most IHL and international criminal restraints. Even recent analyses debating in bello proportionality of IDF attacks, each killing and injuring several hundreds of civilians, such as the bombing of the Jabalia refugee camp in Northern Gaza (see e.g., inter alia, Manea), do not mention once the prohibition of indiscriminate attacks, and seem to imply that violations of distinction do not occur unless “direct and deliberate attacks” against civilians or civilian objects are launched.

I do not disagree with the facts indicated by Andrea. However, assuming Hamas members omitted to take passive precautions (determining this must include feasibility considerations, see Schmitt), and assuming tunnels are lawful targets (which can be neutralized or captured via less devastating methods), this does in no way render Palestinian civilians less civilian, less protected, or admissible targets of proximity. It is aerial attacks we are discussing. There is no way, I think, to bomb underground tunnels with GBU-31 warheads without knowingly flattening densely populated neighbourhoods with hundreds of civilians that will certainly be killed.

The customary prohibition of indiscriminate attacks, as a consequence, becomes crucial, and reminds lawyers and armed actors that distinction does not only prohibit direct and deliberate attacks on civilians and civilian objects, it also prohibits attacks renouncing to discern between them and lawful targets. "

A lethal misconception, in Gaza and beyond: disguising indiscriminate attacks as potentially proportionate in discourses on the laws of war

In recent years and, despite the reality, in the last weeks, a trend among laws of armed conflict scholars has consolidated. This trend is in antithesis to the choral denunciation of mass civilian …

https://www.ejiltalk.org/a-lethal-misconception-in-gaza-and-beyond-disguising-indiscriminate-attacks-as-potentially-proportionate-in-discourses-on-the-laws-of-war

OP posts:
Ohlalalalala · 07/11/2023 18:14

Forgot to highlight the first part too:

"In recent years and, despite the reality, in the last weeks, a trend among laws of armed conflict scholars has consolidated. This trend is in antithesis to the choral denunciation of mass civilian victimization as unlawful and criminal in other conflict theatres (such as, agreeably, in relation to the war against Ukraine). In contrast, bombing campaigns in Gaza have attracted and continue to attract the highest volume of academic commentaries emphasizing the limits of and derogations to civilian immunity from attacks. The ‘unfortunate/tragic but probably proportionate civilian loss of life’ formula has been repeated by countless analyses".

OP posts:
Parkingt111 · 07/11/2023 18:20

@ProvincialLady1 iv just had a look at the author and his entire twitter feed seems to be on praising the IDF. Hundreds of tweets and re tweets
Whilst I appreciate there will be some elements of truth but it's clearly written in a very biased manner by a very biased author

OuiOuiKitty · 07/11/2023 18:22

This reply has been deleted

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I'm just not arsed anymore. If people want to justify the killing, injuring and traumatising of millions of people then that's up to them. I used to be hopeful that when people saw the scale of death and suffering they are supporting they would give their head a wobble. I was wrong 🤷🏻‍♀️. I'm done justifying why I'm against an attempted genocide and why I think 'never again' should mean 'never again to anyone'. Reading some article by some warmongerer about why it's OK it's never going to change my core beliefs that the collective punishment of millions and the killing of 1000s is wrong.

Carlalane · 07/11/2023 18:25

With all the empirical evidence some of you have (collectectively) dug up during the last 4 weeks, you could have been part way towards a degree by now.