Stop this insanity

[Zzbutton]

This has to stop. No debates about which side is right or wrong. Come on people no one with any shred of humanity can surely say what is happening in Gaza right now is ok under ANY justification. I’m absolutely heartbroken to see the world just watching and doing nothing. And getting angrier by the day. I’m in Ireland and thank god our government is calling for what’s right. But they are not doing enough. No one is. There is no politics or background or religion or any moral reason on this planet that makes what’s happening ok. If you think so I think that’s appalling. Each individual needs to do something to say NO to this slaughter, aside from what beliefs you hold about who the ‘good and bad guys’ are.

Do you really think 'whimsy' is in any way appropriate to this situation?

Really beyond belief

I think MN created a separate board for it at the suggestion of people who were traumatized by the events of 7 October and found themselves even further traumatized by the "Ah well" response here.

I remember reading the suggestions at the time and not understanding what they were referring to, as I hadn't noticed the threads in question. Now I really get it... 😐

I have a whimsical suggestion for you....

How about if Israel had not reacted exactly as Hamas expected. Hamas wouldn't have had a clue what to do next. Their plan appears to be based on making Israel react which means Hamas are in the driving seat. Israel could have engaged their brains and turned the tables in the PR war in an instant but they didn't and now they look stupid and incompetent. Not content with killing Gaza civilians they now want to send their reservists to die in Gaza.

Instead of capitalising on public sympathy Israel thought they could do what they have got away with for too long and bomb Gazan civilians. Only this time the world was paying attention to their dehumanising rhetoric and rather than realise their mistake Israel have doubled down, it's almost as if they can't quite believe that the majority of humanity isn't OK with heaping atrocity on top of atrocity.

No one has said "oh well" about October 7th. If you have to distort the truth to that extent I think it's because you know that what is happening in Gaza is not acceptable.

Again I ask you, how many people would you accept dying in the attempt to destroy an idea?

Well, that does sound great 👍 ... except the bit about capitalising on public sympathy, as though they ever get any!! The outpouring of hatred for Israel on here has taken my breath away. Yes, they have a shitty right-wing government, but a lot of countries have a shitty government with awful policies.

I'm not distorting anything about the dismissive tone and content of many MN posts. Honestly, I wish I was making it up; it's really shocked me. A lot of " Well yes obviously 7 October was bad, but..."

Israel do have quite a lot at stake in this conflict, and just conceivably might have a bit of background information that we armchair enthusiasts don't have access to. I'm pretty sure they did "engage their brains," and they might even know better than us.... Imagine! 😉

There's another thread on here pointing out that for the volume and power of the bombs, you'd expect far higher casualties, suggesting that they are in fact being quite careful (obviously the words "careful" and "bombing" don't really go together) with their targets, preparing the way for a ground attack.

From my perspective, given what's just happened to Israel, I think we should STFU and let them deal with it as best they can. I wouldn't fancy being one of those soldiers entering Gaza. They have an incredibly tough job ahead.

The hatred is not for Israel or the Jewish people, but for the oppressive Israeli government and Israeli defence forces and their behaviour towards 2.3 MILLION Gazan citizens. 2.3 MILLION!! None of whom have safe passage, medicine, food or water, most of which have now been displaced and are presently homeless. Shocking.

Nothing justifies this behaviour by Israeli govt and IDF.

Amnesty International Finds “Damning Evidence of War Crimes” by Israel in Gaza;

Israel/Gaza: UN experts urge lawyers advising Israeli military to refuse legal authorisation of actions that could amount to war crimes

@aswarmofmidges

And it doesn't matter that Hamas do bad things if Israel are also doing bad things

How do you figure that? Surely if both sides are doing bad things, BOTH sets of bad things matter?

The whole reason situations like this become so intractible is that each side is unwilling to change its actions or policies until the other side changes first. Change therefore becomes literally impossible. Change only becomes possible through a negotiated future that involved changes on both sides.

In Hamas's case that means, as a bare minimum, recognising Israel's right ot exist. As long as they avoid doing that, or only do it half-heartedly, hypocritically and unconvincingly, there is no basis for negotiation.

It will basically end when one side wipes out the other. My money's on Israel.

From my perspective, given what's just happened to Israel, I think we should STFU and let them deal with it as best they can. I wouldn't fancy being one of those soldiers entering Gaza. They have an incredibly tough job ahead.

No, no we shouldn't. There are many of us from the ME, some still there. Some posters have lost numerous friends and family members in Gaza. The public opinion turning against the actions of the IDF could be what pushes Sunak to publicly condemn the ongoing humanitarian crisis they created and are keeping going. Maybe it won't, but staying silent definitely won't help.

@MadderthanMorris

I think I didn't explain myself well

What I was trying to say it that it doesn't matter who is doing bad things - i see a lot of "well they did x" as an excuse for killing . A lot of going back decades to show how the other side stated it

Everyone needs to stop the blame game and think about how to achieve peace

I don't believe either side could or should completely wipe out everyone who might now or in the future hate them enough to cause future violence so these attacks just perpetuate violence

Stop killing and start talking
start accepting each other as human not animal

And that will need a lot of help and external support

I think. We broadly agree

There is no hatred of Israel; anger at the government - yes; immense frustration at the decision to punish civilians for the crimes of a terrorist group - yes, but not hatred.

Are you unable to grasp how many Israeli lives will be lost if this escalates? Are you so blinkered by your distorted narrative that it's beyond you to imagine that people will be equally as appalled by that as we are about the collective punishment of Gaza?

One more time - what death toll is acceptable to you?

@aswarmofmidges

Yes, that makes more sense.

I don't believe either side could or should completely wipe out everyone who might now or in the future hate them enough to cause future violence so these attacks just perpetuate violence

It's not a question of that. Israel just needs to wipe out those who refuse to accept its existence. There are states in the region like Jordan and Egypt who already do. Once that can be taken for granted amongst all its neighbours it will have no need for expensive and dangerous "buffer zones".

Hamas have the harder job as they need to destroy the Israeli state itself, which has the USA behind it among others.

Stop killing and start talking
start accepting each other as human not animal

LOL, you say that likes it's an obvious thing. But there's a problem with this on each side:

The whole genesis of Israel - the zionist drive to make that piece of land a jewish homeland, the partition plan based on it and the expulsion of thousands of Palestinians to make it possible - was predicated on a racist colonial mentality in which the Palestinians were less than human, so the British and UN could divide up political settlements around them as if they were dealing with ^terra nullius".

And the whole vision that Hamas and the like imagine in its place is one which jews are less than human, and subject to persecution and dhimmi status under the righteous and "natural" rule of Islam over the entire region.

Both mentalities are fundamentally theocratic, but with a different theo. Arguing about the limitations of that and its power to keep everyone stuck in the cycle of violence sounds perfectly convincing to me, but entails all the same problems that trying to reason with religion always entails.

I'm afraid you're wrong about hatred of Israel. On another thread, someone has literally just damned them to hell. I'm not accusing you of it; just saying there's plenty of it around.

War is unbearable. It's probably worse now that we can see everyone's suffering in close-up. Should you choose to do so, you can saturate yourself with horrifying images from the moment you wake.

Ideally, obviously, no death toll is acceptable. War should be avoided altogether. But I'm not sure we've come up with any brilliant ideas for alternatives, apart from wishing everyone would just stop killing each other and sit down for a nice reasonable discussion. If only...!

I'm guessing there's an awful lot of frantic discussions going on among an awful lot of people behind an awful lot of closed doors. I'll leave them to work out what's best in this excruciatingly difficult and complex situation.

So are you saying here that you can never stop a murderous anti-Semitic movement dedicated to the destruction of your people and state, so you shouldn’t even try?

I hope that is not what you meant, but it sure sounds like it.

I have no idea what the solution is here. No one does. But I do object to those placing the blame for all this death and destruction entirely on Israel whilst Hamas is given a responsibility body swerve. It’s Hamas that knowingly served up the people of Gaza to all this destruction. They are bloody evil. Freedom fighters my fucking arse.

Internet is down in Gaza. Palestinian people were showing (not telling) the world what was happening. Now they can’t. Please people don’t look the other way let our governments know any way we can by protests, letters, emails and the internet that we do not support what is happening to civilians in Gaza. 💔

From BBC News:

The Palestine Red Crescent Society says it has "completely lost contact" with its operations room in the Gaza Strip.

The humanitarian organisation adds in its statement: "We are deeply concerned about the ability of our teams to continue providing their emergency medical services, especially since this disruption affects the central emergency number '101' and hinders the arrival of ambulance vehicles to the wounded and injured."

The organisation says it's also worried about the safety of its teams working in the Gaza Strip, and issues a call to the world to "exert pressure on the Israeli authorities to provide immediate protection to innocent civilians, medical facilities and our teams".

How many Palestinian children do you want to die? When will you say enough is enough?

I do think that we don't have to have brilliant ideas to avoid war. If this is one country's defense failure, they should accept. Responsible leader should resign. New leadership should use diplomacy to release the people in their captivity and then plan the hunt for militants.

As paer the latest news IDF dint worry aboyt their civilians while they attack terrorists back. Same is happening with Hamas. Hamas is any way ready to die, but it isn't same what civilians in Israel ,IDF want to fallow. So It is on all those who let palastenians to be palasteninas and not perpetuating hamas.

Hamas is ready to giveup their life so we cant expect them to think about their civilians but I wish Israel think about their ciivilians future.

Thank you. Exactly.

They should think what they can sacrifise in return what they want. If that is acceptable to otherside, they agree. Hamas anyway has to die. But what do they achive by giving up their livies is what they try.

I witnessed so many terrorist attacks before, who actually has nothing against the country they attack , They were weapons of someone else.

I think they've probably given quite a lot of thought to that, and face impossible choices.