Thread 2 To think Hamas have given Israel the excuse they were looking for?

[MistyMooPup]

First thread here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/4916801-to-think-hamas-have-given-israel-the-excuse-they-were-looking-for?page=38

Very good point 👉

Very true.

When Mosab Yousef calls for unity, he is not talking in a vague happy-rainbow Children of the Earth way. He is urging us to back Israel and stop being naive about Hamas's immediate and global ambitions. I'd say as the son of a founding Hamas leader, he should know.

Yes
In the next paragraph which I didn't paste it stated that Israel said it carried out 400 strikes overnight
So according to that I wouldn't think that figure give or take is too far off

Why are people from kibbutzes seen as more naive than most western people?
I don't think it was your intention but it does sound quite patronising

Especially as you go on to say they will cling to their beliefs regardless of consequences to themselves or others.
Almost as if they aren't as smart or intelligent as westerners

You're not familiar with the kibbutz movement at all? I thought you were very interested in the conflict? Yes I did intend to be patronising. Where did you get the idea that no one living in a kibbutz is a westerner? Or that naivety is somehow related to a lack of intelligence? I have so many questions.

And yes I am interested in the conflict but I have quite basic knowledge on kibbutz. I have never professed to knowing everything about this conflict and have said many times that I have learnt alot from other posters here, especially the ones who have given first hand accounts of views and politics who live in Israel
I'm always open to learning.

There are certain posters that reply 99% of the time being rude and/or condescending. I've stopped engaging, no point when all they want to do is thrash out their views and reply to opposing viewpoints with "I don't care" and similar.

Indeed, there are condescending and inflammatory posts from both sides of the debate.

Yes, I read the same report and I’m not
disputing the number of Israeli airstrikes but nice deflection.

Good to see a voice of reason. Let's hope Israel listens instead of continuing its collective punishment

The UN secretary general, António Guterres, has called for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza, saying the “appalling attacks” by Hamas inside Israel on 7 October cannot justify the “collective punishment of the Palestinian people” and that “no party to an armed conflict is above international humanitarian law”.
He said at the UN in New York that he was “deeply concerned about the clear violations of international humanitarian law that we are witnessing in Gaza”, adding: “Our UN fuel supplies in Gaza will run out in a matter of days. That would be another disaster. To ease epic suffering, make the delivery of aid easier and safer and facilitate the release of hostages, I reiterate my appeal for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire.”
Guterres said the 7 October attacks did not happen “in a vacuum”, and that “the Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation. They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements, plagued by violence, their economy stifled, their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing.”
He said: “At a crucial moment like this, it is vital to be clear on principles – starting with the fundamental principle of respecting and protecting civilians.”

Thank you to Hamas for the gro pro footage. You have made sure that I have zero support and sympathy for anyone who comes out of Gaza.
All the people In Gaza surely knew about the underground bunkers, about the training centers next to their hospitals and the water pipes that disappeared.

Do you know about every terrorist group in your country? I certainly don't feel responsible for the terrorist attacks in the UK, although by your logic they are British and were operating and planning in the UK for a long time, so it's on all our shoulders.
Don't you understand that Hamas also oppress Palestinians? Would you speak up against them while they stood in front of you armed to the teeth?

What an awful and simplistic view. I'm glad most of the public here don't seem to share it.

Don't you understand that Hamas also oppress Palestinians?
Well, yes, and one of the ways they do this is to use civilians as human shields in their dirty war.
That way, anyone attacking them is demonised for killing children.

I don't think Hamas or the IDF care about Palestinian civilians, as they have both shown, even in past conduct.
I was referring to the poster not having sympathy for ordinary Gazans, who are being oppressed and attacked on two fronts.

I would agree that some of the civilians have helped them. It would be naive to believe otherwise.

Let's say we all agree that Hamas hides behind civilians. Then the only way to be rid of Hamas would be to rid of majority if not all the civilians in Gaza. I'm pretty sure even Israeli ministers as evil as some of them are will say we won't get away with that. So then how many civilian deaths are acceptable as collateral damage in targeting Hamas?

@Alcemeg the UN have strongly condemned Israel in its violations today and rightly so.
Israels response was to tell the man to resign

The tide is very definitely turning against the Israeli government.

Oh 100%

As much as mners might be feeling heartened etc I would caution against too much rejoicing over an angrier and alienated Israel.

For world stability reasons.

I also saw an open letter to the UN today with the anguish they feel over not having the barbaric acts on October 7th fully recognised

Having read what happened, sickening as it was, I would take care to recognise that hurt

Only by showing understanding of the horror can talk be hoped for

But in todays statement the head of UN did condemn
These were his words: UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres is currently speaking at the session, saying he has "condemned" the "horrifying and unprecedented" attack by Hamas and "nothing can justify" the killing of civilians.

Israel is just not happy that they are being called out for all their violations that they have been committing. The same ones we often get shot down for stating on here. Atleast the head of the UN said openly what many western governments have only just started saying indirectly

So then how many civilian deaths are acceptable as collateral damage in targeting Hamas?

That's a sly question. Obviously, none. But war is ugly.

This one is complicated by the fact that Hamas as so deeply enmeshed in the intimate structures of civilian life in Gaza.

I don’t know if you made time to watch this video I posted earlier, with his son?

In case you can't be bothered, I've typed out his answer at 07:25, in response to a question about aid reaching the civilians (I do type fast!!! 😜):

You know, the US and Europe have been very generous with the Palestinian people. But their leadership steals the money, all the time. They steal the aid. So much aid came into Gaza; Hamas used all that aid to build tunnels under the ground, and now look at the chaos they are creating. The aid is great, but not right now. I suggest that we open the border for the Palestinian innocent people, including women, children and elders, to leave the Gaza Strip or to go into a safe zone. In the meantime, we have to enforce unbreachable siege on Hamas. Otherwise, we are not able to deplete them. They are under the ground. They have hostages. We have to cut power. We cannot give them food. We cannot give them water. And we have to deplete them for long weeks before we can even go in. Otherwise, we cannot win this war against this brutal enemy – enemy of humanity.

Maybe that's a good strategy? I've no idea, but you'd think he'd have some bright ideas, given who his father is.

This sounds a bit worrying from UN agency in Gaza

The lack of fuel getting into Gaza is plunging hospitals into dire straits but is also affecting aid agencies, as well of course as ordinary Palestinians struggling underneath the Israeli blockade and bombardment.
The United Nations relief agency for Palestinian refugees, formally the UN Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa) has tweeted/posted a desperate message that it will run out of fuel inside Gaza by Wednesday night “forcing us to halt operations and delivery of humanitarian aid to people in need.”

Meanwhile, Israel has accused Hamas of stealing fuel form Unrwa, with an Israeli military spokesperson stating in a quick snap on Reuters that:
Petrol that Hamas stoke from UNRWA” should be given to hospitals.

It’s not really how you feel, or people posting on SM, it’s what it prompts Israel to do next.

Diplomacy has got to be getting to the right place not alienation and more anger.

Israel is hurting, understandably. It’s going to take good diplomacy as a concerted effort.