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Conflict in the Middle East
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Maireas · 24/10/2023 11:41

Extraordinary, @Parkingt111 .
That sort of response gives hope in a sea of hatred.

Alcemeg · 24/10/2023 11:44

SinnerBoy · 23/10/2023 23:35

Israel is in a very weird position, being expected to provide supplies to sustain their opponents.

I can see that it seems counterintuitive, but it's a norm and law of war - applying to all partie at war, not just Israel - that civilian populations must be allowed the bare necessities of life.

Water is one of them. As for fuel, other countries can pay, but Israel (and if it were the UK, Peru etc...) needs to allow it through. Hospitals are protected by law and convention, as are water treatment plants.

As there is no running water, let alone sewage works, I'm certain that we're soon going to to see cholera and typhoid, which is entirely avoidable. Tony Blair, among others, is likely to have committed a war crime, by having the RAF bomb Iraqi water treatment infrastructure and then refusing even UN inspected replacement parts.

But honestly, how can they begin to differentiate the "civilian population" when apparently you have to be a Hamas supporter to even get a job in Gaza?

Efacsen · 24/10/2023 11:49

Alcemeg · 24/10/2023 11:44

But honestly, how can they begin to differentiate the "civilian population" when apparently you have to be a Hamas supporter to even get a job in Gaza?

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920000 are under 10 years of age so that might be a start?

Parkingt111 · 24/10/2023 11:52

Alcemeg · 24/10/2023 11:44

But honestly, how can they begin to differentiate the "civilian population" when apparently you have to be a Hamas supporter to even get a job in Gaza?

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I see a few people have mentioned that you need to be a hamas supporter to get a job in Gaza. Do you know what they source for that is?

Alcemeg · 24/10/2023 11:53

Efacsen · 24/10/2023 11:49

920000 are under 10 years of age so that might be a start?

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I get that, but what if their dad is Hamas?

Don't get me wrong, I don't want Israel to be bombing the fuck out of Gaza. I want these horrors to end immediately.

I just think that Israel's stated goal of targeting Hamas is (a) understandable and (b) impossible.

beachcitygirl · 24/10/2023 11:56

Wouldn't everyone here do what Hamas said if they had a gun in your face ?

I would

I don't think that means they are Hamas supporters.

Although of course presumably a minority of Palestinians will be. Figures unknown but definitely a minority as over half of Palestinians are kids.

Alcemeg · 24/10/2023 11:57

Parkingt111 · 24/10/2023 11:52

I see a few people have mentioned that you need to be a hamas supporter to get a job in Gaza. Do you know what they source for that is?

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It was on the "I'm not saying I'm pro Israel..." thread.

@lavender2023 can you enlighten?

Efacsen · 24/10/2023 11:57

Might be wrong but think it's based on the idea that Hamas is the government in Gaza so everyone -all doctors and nurses porters, laundry staff ward cleaners, teachers, street cleaners, tourism board etc etc is employed by Hamas

Though can't really see them employing anyone other than their mates

Wonkasworld · 24/10/2023 11:58

Efacsen · 24/10/2023 11:57

Might be wrong but think it's based on the idea that Hamas is the government in Gaza so everyone -all doctors and nurses porters, laundry staff ward cleaners, teachers, street cleaners, tourism board etc etc is employed by Hamas

Though can't really see them employing anyone other than their mates

Edited

So it's not just the Israelis oppressing them.

Maireas · 24/10/2023 12:01

I do think that Hamas operate like gangsters, from various sources I've read. There was someone quite informative on another thread, I'm sorry I can't remember which one.

upinaballoon · 24/10/2023 12:03

Parkingt111 · 24/10/2023 11:40

Very powerful words by the freed hostage Yocheved Lifschitz that I am sure many of us can resonate with. What a strong amazing woman she is to call for peace despite what she has been through

In the UK, her daughter, Sharone Lifschitz told the BBC: “She is very sharp and is very keen to share the information, pass on the information to families of other hostages she was with.”
She said she and her mother still dreamed of peace with Palestinians, arguing: “We have to find ways because there is no alternative. If anything, it makes me even more resolved. The way has got longer – we are dealing with grief and loss on a level we can never get over, but as nations we will have to find a way forward.”

Edited

Was that the Today programme between 8 and 9 this morning? After the daughter, they talked to a man but I didn't catch everything he said, but I know I felt that maybe there is some hope, with people making those kinds of noises in the world. I felt that in a way it was a payback from the BBC to the world for the almost-lack-of-hope which the news pictures have given us for so many days.

Parkingt111 · 24/10/2023 12:08

upinaballoon · 24/10/2023 12:03

Was that the Today programme between 8 and 9 this morning? After the daughter, they talked to a man but I didn't catch everything he said, but I know I felt that maybe there is some hope, with people making those kinds of noises in the world. I felt that in a way it was a payback from the BBC to the world for the almost-lack-of-hope which the news pictures have given us for so many days.

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I only managed to watch parts of it but read the updates on the BBC and guardian thread on the rest so I'm not sure

TheABC · 24/10/2023 12:20

beachcitygirl · 24/10/2023 11:05

Can't disagree with much of what you say @TheABC only the part about supported by the populace. It's more nuanced.

If someone turned up at my door right now in a black ski mask and pointed a gun at my kids heads and I knew:suspect them to be Hamas.

I strongly suspect I would do whatever they damm well tell me too.

I suspect most of us would.

True,@beachcitygirl.
On top of that, Hammas has been in power for 16 years, and it's all many young Gazans have ever known. Politics have badly served the Palestinians - either they are corrupt (like the PLO) or terrorists (like Hammas). I have not heard of a third, viable option.

SomeCatFromJapan · 24/10/2023 12:26

The footage of Yocheved Lifschitz touching the masked man's arm was extremely moving. That gesture of humanity in the midst of all the horror and death and hatred.

I'm starting to wonder (and I'm absolutely not cheerleading or excusing Hamas here) if things went a bit rogue on the 7th of October and what happened wasn't part of the original plan? But then the kibbutz footage does show armed men clearly intent on shooting people not capturing them so who knows.

Parkingt111 · 24/10/2023 12:27

If any of you are on instagram you should follow Motaz azaiza. He is a journalist who records live from the ground. Although you have to have quite a strong stomach to view his stories, especially with the children but it shows a real time picture of day to day life in Gaza during this conflict. And one of the reasons why I am so passionate for a ceasefire

Latest update on death toll.
Hamas-run health ministry says more than 700 killed in past 24 hoursThe Hamas-run ministry of health in Gaza has issued an update, saying at least 5,791 people have been killed in Gaza since 7 October.
That's an increase of more then 700 on the figure announced yesterday.
Israel says its air strikes hit more than 400 targets in Gaza in the past day - it says it's targeting Hamas infrastructure.

Parkingt111 · 24/10/2023 12:28

SomeCatFromJapan · 24/10/2023 12:26

The footage of Yocheved Lifschitz touching the masked man's arm was extremely moving. That gesture of humanity in the midst of all the horror and death and hatred.

I'm starting to wonder (and I'm absolutely not cheerleading or excusing Hamas here) if things went a bit rogue on the 7th of October and what happened wasn't part of the original plan? But then the kibbutz footage does show armed men clearly intent on shooting people not capturing them so who knows.

I did read somewhere that there were some youth and other people who saw what was happening and took it as an opportunity to join in. Il try to look for the source.

Maireas · 24/10/2023 12:28

They seem to have gone on a rampage on Oct 7th, with a level of atrocity that it's hard to stomach.
Then abducted others as bargaining chips, so kept them alive. So a two pronged attack, maybe?

Parkingt111 · 24/10/2023 12:33

SomeCatFromJapan · 24/10/2023 12:26

The footage of Yocheved Lifschitz touching the masked man's arm was extremely moving. That gesture of humanity in the midst of all the horror and death and hatred.

I'm starting to wonder (and I'm absolutely not cheerleading or excusing Hamas here) if things went a bit rogue on the 7th of October and what happened wasn't part of the original plan? But then the kibbutz footage does show armed men clearly intent on shooting people not capturing them so who knows.

Yes I saw it was either guardian or sky. Somebody asked her why did you shake his hand? And she said because they treated me very well.
Again not condoning taking hostages and then saying oh well it's ok to do so aslong as treat them well.

SomeCatFromJapan · 24/10/2023 12:33

I did read somewhere that there were some youth and other people who saw what was happening and took it as an opportunity to join in. Il try to look for the source.

I'd be interested to see that, I'd find it plausible. Leaving aside the obvious horror and brutality of the attack, there was an extreme lack of discipline in evidence which is in contrast with the hostage handover.

Parkingt111 · 24/10/2023 12:36

SomeCatFromJapan · 24/10/2023 12:33

I did read somewhere that there were some youth and other people who saw what was happening and took it as an opportunity to join in. Il try to look for the source.

I'd be interested to see that, I'd find it plausible. Leaving aside the obvious horror and brutality of the attack, there was an extreme lack of discipline in evidence which is in contrast with the hostage handover.

Il try and look for it

Parkingt111 · 24/10/2023 13:00

SomeCatFromJapan · 24/10/2023 12:33

I did read somewhere that there were some youth and other people who saw what was happening and took it as an opportunity to join in. Il try to look for the source.

I'd be interested to see that, I'd find it plausible. Leaving aside the obvious horror and brutality of the attack, there was an extreme lack of discipline in evidence which is in contrast with the hostage handover.

I can't find where or if I did read it somewhere or if it was mentioned in discussion with someone else so can discard that for the time being. If I do come across it will share it.

Efacsen · 24/10/2023 13:10

Parkingt111 · 24/10/2023 13:00

I can't find where or if I did read it somewhere or if it was mentioned in discussion with someone else so can discard that for the time being. If I do come across it will share it.

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Was it on Channel 4 news? I remember the same interview too

Yesterday I tried to find them talking about their 'stockpiles' for someone - just a totally overwhelming amount of information to wade thro'

25milesfromhome · 24/10/2023 13:21

“Hamas-run health ministry says more than 700 killed in past 24 hoursThe Hamas-run ministry of health in Gaza has issued an update, saying at least 5,791 people have been killed in Gaza since 7 October.”
The loss of life and the suffering inflicted on the Palestinians is appalling but please be aware of who is providing these figures.

Pollyputhekettleon · 24/10/2023 13:38

Before anyone takes the public words or actions of released hostages too seriously, remember that they're aware there are other hostages still in the power of Hamas, often including friends or family members. And Hamas are well aware of how to.appeal to the emotions of gullible westerners. Beyond that, people from kibbutzes are, on average, if anything even more naive than most western people. Many people will cling to their beliefs regardless of the consequences for themselves or anyone else.