Thread 2 To think Hamas have given Israel the excuse they were looking for?

[MistyMooPup]

First thread here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/4916801-to-think-hamas-have-given-israel-the-excuse-they-were-looking-for?page=38

Totally agree. Those of us being made to feel guilty are used to the cursory acknowledgement of the terrorists' atrocities.

A deliberately targeted massacre, which will be treated with the contempt it deserves, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm waiting to see if anything concrete comes from the captured Hamas soldier, who was told to stomp on heads, behead and do what you want.

Hamas aren't stupid though. It is clear those in real power had a very set Idea of what would happen... taking hostages.... and that whatever reason young men went barbarian instead (I feel like whatever I write is inadequate) rewriting history eg what dead babies is very difficult when it's clear and there is evidence that children were brutalised/ murdered/ taken hostage.

The world view generally js that they shouldn't have done that. They now need to be seen as approachable and tip the balance again. Releasing two elderly ladies shows the human side. And two Americans (placating Biden temporarily) they know they risk a lot more holding onto those with dual citizenship.

I am not the spokeswoman for all of the Middle East but there is less understanding there of the Palestinian plight and the need to help. I have just watched a news piece with one of the emirates spokespeople. They think we have no understanding of the threat we face as we don't take radicalisation seriously. Egypt has made it clear they do not want Palestinian refugees as with them come Hamas and their country has had its fair share of internal trouble.

Israel may well have said no. Because if they hold onto all the hostages and get them all out it doesn't leave that young lady who was pulled by her hair into a jeep, the soldiers who will just disappear, the women they paraded through the streets. It keeps them all in the public eye. Because in some cases run of the mill Jews just aren't as important.

Of course I think this situation is dire but honestly I see no other choice. Let's say they decide just to amass at the border and sit down with Hamas.... it's part of their charter to get rid of the Jews as a whole.... I am loathe to use the word eradicate. What then? They have been offered numerous times the two state solution. They don't want it. They are not In this to compromise.

If you believe either side will hand war criminals over to be tried you are somewhat naive as both sides believe they have right and god on their sides.

What's horrifying to me is anyone panicked and horrified by the untold death & destruction in Gaza as well as being horrified by atrocities committed by Hamas is hounded.

Some on this board simply do not value Palestinian lives. It's increasingly obvious and the term antisemitism thrown about like confetti.

I have a close friend a medic working in Palestine.

I can care about innocents on both sides - it's not mutually exclusive.
I can be repulsed by the horrors of Hamas and think the actions taken by Israel are repulsive z

Seems to be to some Israeli Government supporters though & that is dark.

I'm pretty cynical about the hostages being returned. It's a PR stunt for Hamas, to demonstrate how civilised they are, as though you can reasonably negotiate with them if you just try. Meanwhile I dread to imagine the fate of their other captives. Festival survivors mention the terrorists laughing with delight as they killed and raped, not necessarily in that order. I imagine there's a lot of fun to be had.

With so much anger and upset on both sides, I can't see an opportunity for peace in the immediate future. Hamas has planned this well; there are no good options available for Israel and the current Israeli government is turning a terrible situation into a fast-moving catastrophe with the lack of water, fuel and medicine. To sustain a population like Gaza's, we need 500 trucks a day flowing through Egypt's gate, or (better yet), some international ships moored up distributing aid.

There's no easy answer to removing Hamas. They are entrenched, supported by the populace and several outside powers. Any street fighting will be messy, prolonged and involve a lot of casualties on both sides. Unless Israel targets the leadership and donors in Qatar and Iran, this will boil up again. Hamas DO want to eradicate the Israeli state and they will never accept peace. I get the impression it's an existential fight for people on both sides of the border and historically that has ended in mass removal or mass death.

I'm dreading the next few days.

The death toll I. Palestine now stands at 5,087, including 2,055 children. Another 15,273 wounded.

An additional 1,500 are reported missing and buried under rubble, including 830 children.

Are Gaza’s killing fields full enough yet for revenge? Or do people want more?

It is why I cannot agree with your language post.

Which is what you asked.

I haven’t really used language on the men that committed the atrocities other than what I’ve posted to condemn.

Being asked to accept what you want is too much for me still given the pain and anguish. So I decline.

There isn't one. Why on earth would you think there was? That's my whole point.

@EasternStandard fair enough. I disagree but fair enough. I understand pain.

My friend is an Irish medic currently in a hospital in Gaza.
That's why I cannot accept the rhetoric of hate & vengeful attitude to the bombing of Gaza by some on here

We are human & hurt.

It is. You're right, @TheABC .
I think it's difficult for the Israelis to pull back on this, after the atrocities, so others will need to prevail upon them.
Intemperate language has been used on both sides.
I'm listening to Macron now.

I can be repulsed by the horrors of Hamas and think the actions taken by Israel are repulsive
Yes; and I can empathise with the long-suffering people of Gaza, but also feel (1) that Hamas is at least as much to blame for that as Israel, (2) that the actions taken by Hamas are so beyond repulsive that even as a Gazan I would understand full-blown retaliation, and (3) that it is difficult to tell the difference between a Hamas supporter/terrorist and an innocent Gazan.

Hamas are manipulating the whole situation for their own evil ends. I'm guessing they wanted to provoke reaction from Israel so that Hezbollah etc would pile on and help them eliminate Israel once and for all. Whether their plan has backfired or not remains to be seen. I'd imagine there is a lot of frantic talking going on between all the countries waiting in the wings of this complete fuckup disaster.

@TheABC mossad Is pretty ruthless and has a good track history when it comes to extracting criminals against the Jewish people...Eichmann? So perhaps the plan is to go after the top brass hiding and operating in other countries. American did the same after 9/11. They are not going to advertise though.

Remember rockets are still being fired into Israel. They are also falling short on the Gaza side and killing people. Hamas hasn't stopped.

Can't disagree with much of what you say @TheABC only the part about supported by the populace. It's more nuanced.

If someone turned up at my door right now in a black ski mask and pointed a gun at my kids heads and I knew:suspect them to be Hamas.

I strongly suspect I would do whatever they damm well tell me too.

I suspect most of us would.

Yes, the film "Munich" was a real eye opener.

We do. Maybe we need to tread carefully around each other a bit more as there is a lot of hurt.

And whilst we all likely find it incredibly hard I’m mindful that I am just posting on mn, and that real pain is happening in Israel and Gaza, and for everyone it is so sad and awful.

What I’ve read on here in terms of Hamas acts have been truly horrific. I’m not pro escalation though. The opposite. Each time I hear de escalation I think tg

A lot of posts being deleted. Hmmm.

@TheABC agree with much of what you say

Unfortunately Port Gaza the only deep-water port was destroyed by Israel some years ago

From photos it looks like the rest of the coastline is flat sandy beaches so not ideal for landing large quantities of aid

There is an airport in Egypt just 45Km from the Rafah crossing which seems to be the best way of getting international aid into Gaza

@Wonkasworld I agree

They must have contravened talk guidelines. I had notification this morning that a couple I reported last night had only just been removed. I imagine MNHQ have their hands full.

If that's going to be the case, then the inflammatory posts should be removed. I've reported one, at least.

It has to work both ways. I have also reported a couple.

They won't be removed if there is nothing against talk guidelines.
Ones I've reported in the past that were removed were islamophobic, racist or obvious hate speech. There have been opinions I've very much disagreed with, but of course not reported. MNHQ are generally quite on the ball with it.

Very powerful words by the freed hostage Yocheved Lifschitz that I am sure many of us can resonate with. What a strong amazing woman she is to call for peace despite what she has been through

In the UK, her daughter, Sharone Lifschitz told the BBC: “She is very sharp and is very keen to share the information, pass on the information to families of other hostages she was with.”
She said she and her mother still dreamed of peace with Palestinians, arguing: “We have to find ways because there is no alternative. If anything, it makes me even more resolved. The way has got longer – we are dealing with grief and loss on a level we can never get over, but as nations we will have to find a way forward.”

Beautiful lady ❤️