To TTC or not to TTC, that is the question... as Hamlet sort of said about something else entirely

[CHW]

Hi,
Had few glasses of wine and have spent large part of the evening on this site. I am in two minds about a baby - or really, at the age of 35 (but Type 1 diabetic which can complicate thingss) and really ought to make a decision about whether to have a family or not.
I worry about cost, the changes it will make to our lives and, well, if I am actually just happy as I am. Me and DH discussed going for it, so to speak, sometime after the start of Aug (as did the London Triathlon before then so couldn't before then) and decided we would once the triathlon was out the way. Now it is and we are both stalling. But it is playing on both our minds - in the do we, or don't we way.

My babyometer keeps going haywire - any tips or things for me to also consider which may help us make a decision. I am also wondering if we are simply analysing things too much but beeing diabetic makes things more complicated (ie they need to be planned, in an ideal world at least.) Any help or food for thoughts would be MASSIVELY appreciated!

Ah, LizBaz, I was wondering how old you were but didn't want to ask in case you thought I was assuming you were 40+ or similar and presumed that was why you were having problems. Really sorry to hear about the difficulties you've been having. Guess, as you say, almost everyone gets there in the end. Must be very frustrating though.

I have known a few mothers who have said that if they knew then what they know now (with childre) they wouldn't have done it, but these women also seem to adore their children - quite confusing really! I think my biggest reason is not wanting to regret not doing it, once I don't have the choice any more (I am 35 in Sept so still have some time)

I agree that this site is a godsend, and, if I can be snobby for a second, also seems to be frequented by women / mums who have valid and interesting things to say rather than the usual badly written semi-text speak nonsense you get on a lot of forums (which is why I've never done the 'chat room' thing before now.) However, I suppose all this great info can have the opposite effect and makes the babyometer swing madly from 'yes' to 'no' even more. I mean really, who in their right mind wants to do that to themselves? Apart from me, or at least I did last night...

Afternoon Ladies, and hi to LizBaz. Welcome to the thread of uncertainty, where intelligent, confident, capable women go to be indecisive about major life choices. And also be poor spellers.

Im sorry to hear that you are having problems, Im worried that anything I say might sound trite or patronising, but I really hope you have a positive outcome. Its interesting to hear that you still have your doubts and misgivings as well, despite everything you have been through (much sympathy for all the prodding and poking, I go wobbly at smear time so I feel for you!). Is IVF the only way forward - I have complete ignorance about this, but is there something else they can try first, or have you explored all other options and IVF is the recommended next step?

So many of my friends claim to have had a sudden hormonal attack whereby they were blasted by the broody gun (usually around age 30) and then became full on baby focussed. I feel Ive had the delay switch turned on so long that I dont know how to turn it off, to allow myself to almost indulge in a personal wish, instead of being a good career girl or carefree, breezy partner.

CHW - so, stage 1 of the plan? Thats great! Im gearing up to stage 1 of mine (DH conference), I think I may do it tomorrow, after some wine. Did I say some, I meant a fair bit. Ok, a lot.

Evening ladies,

Firstly, I am being laid off at work (it was a long term temp thing anyway so no great shocker) so it looks like Stage 1 will now have to be put back. This is a blow, especially as it was great to feel as if we may, or may not, be getting somewhere towards making some kind of decision. Humph! However, I am going to remain positive, work on my book (progress currently feels more backwards than forwards) and get myself another, hopefully more secure, job. I hope this is shortlived, (not just because I don't want to be living in a cardboard box!) and then we can get Stage 1 going again. While it could take forever to conceive it would be sods law it happened instantly if we had a bash, so to speak, now.

HoneyPetal - good luck with your DH Conference. I agree a lot of wine would be good, but perhaps not too much so you forget what you actually said / decided. Please do keep us informed!

Re the Broody Gun (like that!) I haven't been, but a lot of my friends seem to have. In fact, I was, and to many of them still am, the one who has NEVER even entertained the idea. I was the animals mad one who was suprisingly good with (for one who doesn't want one) kids but it wasn't for me. I think this is why it is great lurking on MN and talking to strangers about it instead of friends. (Saying that, have told a few friends and so has DH, but it is not general knowledge.) I also think DH is one, if not THE, reason I am now getting more into the idea of having a baby. I have friends who wanted a baby, it didn't matter as much who with, whereas I have round to it as I wanted Phil's (oops! are we not meant to use names?! not sure if the etiquette on these things!)

I can't work out if age is really something to worry about or not. I know there is all this talk of biological clocks and over 35's (front page of the Observer last week) but the majority of my mates started when they were 35 plus and none of them had any problems either. However, it does come up a lot (as well as the stuff about infertility being an issue for 1 in 4 couples - I may be wrong there but it's something like that) and it is hard to totally ignore.

CHW, thats such a shame about your job, even if you were on a short term contract its still a shock when it happens. I hope you get something new and fabulous as soon as possible - fingers crossed for you. Good luck with the book, thats an exciting project!

(You could still go ahead with stage 1 - it is all about information and knowledge is power. I read on a thread that women TTC should be tested for rubella immunity, if they arent immune they need the vaccine which takes three months to get out of ones system, during which time they shouldnt TTC. For example.).

Age and TTC. Its a tricky one. I mean, the facts are the facts, the older we get the further we are away from our fertile prime (I think mine happened sometime in summer of 2002). The stats show what they show, but on the positive side, stats show what happens in a whole population, not at the individual level. So while one woman may be fine up to 40, another may really struggle at 30. But on average, it may be harder when we are older. I guess it comes down to risk - you dont know until you start trying. And infertility can affect anyone at any age. (sorry, Im a scientist, you probably got bored during all that!).

I havent told anyone at all that Im wrestling with the baby/no baby thing. It just seems to much to go into, and Im quite a private person (except when Im on MN, when it clearly all comes spilling out!). My best friend cant conceive 'naturally' so Im not going to go into it with her, bless her. As for everyone else, its just TMI.

HP - what a fountain of knowledge you are! I did wonder re the scientist bit, I have to say!

You're right about going ahead with stage 1 on all counts but think DH is more reluctant. In fact, one of the first things he said re my sudden lack of job was 'maybe we won't bother having a baby just yet' (said in a nice way of course!) Yes, the job situation is a bit pants but also the job was pants and due to my dear father and his dropping us in the shit, we don't have much flexibility re money. However, I am SOOOOOO bored of money stuff I am going to stop right there with that one!

I had no idea about the rubella thing, for example. It seems that pregnancy, or at least considering pregnancy, is just one thing after another. What seems ridiculous is those who seem to get pregnant after 3 mins or simply being sneezed on and have no problems whereas others plan meticulously for months. Years even! This also makes me wonder how bad the risks etc can be if it is unplanned (not recommended for me obviously as diabetic but for others.)

I can't get the idea out of my head but still am in two minds about actually doing something other than this. I know if DH came near the laptop I'd be straight off this page too - it's almost like being a secret smoker but without the, er, fags

Poo, is it that obvious? Right, thats it, the sandals-and-socks are going in the bin, no more white coats for me and Im combing the crazy white hair into a neat ponytail .

DH is much more concerned with the 'material' side of this issue than I am - if I lost my job he would instantly say 'right, thats it, game over, forget it'. The last he said on the subject was that he really wants us to have our own house first and foremost, but trying to balance the two factors of house prices in a recession with Mother Nature's relentless withering of my ovaries is frankly quite stressful. I am of course totally aware of the finances, but we could be 45 before we are totally sorted re: savings and permanant contracts! I hope you get a job you want soon.

OMG, I am totally doing the same thing with MN whenever DH walks passed. Its crazy. I keep lurching between MN and net-a-porter but he has said 'Ive never seen you on the internet so much'. I may be addicted. Save yourself!

Right, Im going for a soak in the bath......

Ha! A kindred spirit! Re furtive Mumsnetting that is...

I can see where your DH is coming from, but, as I have also brought this up with others before, there is (apparently) 'never a right time to have a baby' esp when you consider, well, everything - which is LOADS. I think, but obviously not an expert, that buying now may be silly, but if you wait till everything is in place you'll possibly be drawing your pension! I remember when I first broached the subject with DH, esp the cash side of things, and he said 'you'll always find a way.' I suppose you do, but I'd rather not have to struggle (obviously!) if I could avoid it but then wouldn't we all! As an example, some very dear friends of mine have a baby due in Jan (new years eve - that solves any dilemmas on whether to bother with a party or not!) She is 38, but has only finished her degree a year ago and is now on her 'first' job. Her husband is about to start a 3 year degree and they live in a rented flat. Hardly ideal on any count, but they will 'manage.' Not sure if I want to put myself under that presure but I guess if they can without the 'ideal' circumstances, its not stupid to just go for it ans see what happens. Probably. Personally, I wouldn't want the added pressure but I also wouldn't want to TTC when time is limited as you don't know what can happen. Also, to be honest, I am really impatient too!

Hi, hope you don't mind me dropping in. Just to say that sometimes, even when you're pg you don't know that you definitely want a baby! When the baby arrives it does all fall into place, somehow. Not necessarily all at once but bit by bit you get a grip and start getting used to the flow of the house with a new person there. You do just manage.

Also, you can't imagine how it's going to be no matter how much you babysit other people's children, how many other babies you hold etc etc - don't necessarily use that as a guide because it's a world apart from having your own baby. Not just even in a fluffy romantic kind of way - your baby is as much a part of you as your nose is. It's that simple. Once the baby has arrived you can't imagine not having that baby as much as you can't imagine realistically what it's like to not have your head. You try to imagine but you really can't.

However, whilst you are (sensibly) tackling the logistics of fitting a baby into your life, you have no way of knowing that you WILL have reserves of energy and inspiration and love that you didn't know you had before, to help you - I guess that's nature's "good-luck" gift delivered along with the baby!

Yes it's hard work and endless routines and getting up at 5am to a baby who just wants to play, when you are absolutely knackered and only went to bed at midnight after reloading the washing machine (again). But you somehow just find the energy to do it.

Anyway - just a few thoughts from someone who recognises a lot of the feelings in this thread but has come out the other side - and it's great

Hi Pawsandclaws, thank you for the lovely post, "your baby is as much a part of you as your nose is" may be the cutest thing I have read on MN! And Ive never heard anyone put it like that before, how lovely. Its just so difficult to imagine what its like to be a mother when you arent one that its easier to focus on the practicalities and perceived difficulties. And having the courage to actually go for it despite that is very brave.

Well, that has given me the final push towards stage 1. Im going to wait until after we eat, then go through a few things with DH, like how we feel, future plans and time scales, to see what happens. Its certainly going to be interesting.......

Update: Disaster. Have been invited around friends for meal. Talk delayed. Will try tomorrow.

HP - oh no! What a pain, especially when you've psyched yourself up for it. Whatever you do, don't get plastered tonight and blurt it out!

Pawsandclaws - your post was lovely, thank you. So good in fact that I have now read and re read it 4 times! You see, I do wonder if I really want to have the early wake ups and so on, and it's great to hear about someone who has indeed come out the other side.

Hi all,

CHW - I am so sorry to hear about your job. Even if you weren't enjoying it, that's horrible, and particularly (in respect of why we're all here, at least) if it delays things further. At least you do have a bit of time, age-wise, but very hard that you're having to put up with so much other circumstantial s**t interfering with the decision (and being a royal pain in the arse in every other respect, I imagine).

PawsandClaws - thanks, that is really helpful. As Honeypetal says, lovely and really eloquent about the experience of motherhood outside of all the practical stuff.

HP - hope you do get to have THE conversation soon! My DH was not keen at all to start with, though he's been co-operating, at least, for years now! But he has been very grumpy in the past about the idea of a baby, and still thinks there is some huge conspiracy to make everyone have babies and to keep silent about the drawbacks. (I see what he means up to a point, but if you read a paper like The Guardian (as I do) and no doubt the other broadsheets people are also falling over themselves to tell you how hard it is having kids, how difficult their (usually very privileged) lives are etc!) However he's slowly come round to the idea, though he wouldn't admit it - sounds a bit like yours now, i.e. saying it's up to you but not explicitly against. He's still not very keen, but he is brilliant with kids, and I think realizes there would be lots of rewards (and he'd still get to travel for work, go to work - which he loves, no doubt go to the pub etc far more than I would anyway...). And to be fair he is unhappy that I am periodically unhappy about it all. I think all that was to say, they do come round, usually! We're lucky to have enough money, though never much surplus (even as just the two of us) but even when we didn't he was blissfully unconcerned about that side of things - which may cause untold trouble eventually but makes it easier at this point!

Anyway, sorry this wasn't supposed to be all about me. Hope things work out for you both, CHW and HP, and that you get another job CHW, if that's what you want (although the book also sounds very exciting!!). And thanks Paws for understanding our fears but still coming out with an endorsement of the whole thing! I'm into month 3 after the HSG test, a test which is primarily diagnostic but is supposed to make you more fertile for three months afterwards, so keep your fingers crossed for me! After that, I think we probably will take the IVF plunge so we'll see what happens.

Hi Ladies

It sounds strange to say I know exactely how you feel, when I am actually pregnant, but I do. Dh was always slightly less keen than me but agreed to us trying when I told him it was something I wanted - he has a 14 year age gap with his younger brother which I think put him off. However Dh has now come round to the idea and also in a petrified manner looking forward to it.

I'm always organised and the thought of having a baby in our lives absolutely terrifies me - however the thought of not having one is devastating. I think that it is people who plan and worry about things do worry about this more - those who don't think about it and just go for it won't over-analyse the situation as much.

I'm already worrying about childcare dropoffs/pickups and I'm 18 weeks pregnant - hopefully the fears and worries will drop off when it arrives.

Good luck to you.

LizBaz - top post, thank you. Yes, the job situation is a pain but I am trying to think about it positively. It will be a kick up the bum to get on with both my book and get another more fruitful job (originally stuck at old job so didn't use up too many precious brain cells and so could instead use them when I got home on my book). To be honest, I don't feel that great about things but fretting doesn't help anyone so I am channelling my energies into being positive. After all, I can't do more than I am doing can I?!
Yes, the above was written for my benefit more than anyone elses, but needs must!

The job situation is a pain in the baby department too, I agree. I tend to want to do something about something ASAP as soon as it is decided and while we can still obviously go for the checks etc DH isn't keen and I can see why. Also, today when we were out with the dog he said he didn't think he could 'do the kids thing' and, to be honest, I could see exactly what he means as today my babyometer is on cold. But! As we all know, due to all being as bad as each other, out minds change more often than our, er, clothes so maybe by this evening I'll be pricing up prams on Ebay.

HP - good luck once again on The Chat. I wait with baited breath (hmm, maybe I should get out more!)

Liskey - it does help to know that even pregnant people feel like this. I know some love it the second they realise and spend all their time talking to their bump and so on, but I know a few who have felt close to indifferent. However, I am also thinking of what Pawsandclaws said and think that she must be right, surely? Unless there is some massive conspiracy and everyone with kids actually hates it but pretends otherwise - thankfully I am not that paranoid!

Ps Oh My God.
Have been reading, in detail, the childbirth threads.
Think I need a stiff drink.

Lol CHW - I haven't read them and I am pregnant!

Step away from the childbirth threads. I haven't even read that far in my pregnancy book - some things ARE better faced with ignorance.

even when your trying to get pregnant the sight of a positive test is terrifying - its the responsibility and worry. As a fried of my sisters told me - You wonder why God chose you to be Parents.

Just think only people who will be good parents can worry this much - or at least thats what I'm trying to convince myself of.

Good plan. Whatever you do - STAY AWAY FROM THE PREGNNCY AND CHILDBIRTH THREADS!

CHW - I'm also strangely drawn to the Childbirth threads, and accounts generally elsewhere, even though I'm beginning to think it may never happen for me. It never ceases to amaze me how hard (and sometimes utterly barbaric) the whole process is - what on earth went wrong evolutionarily to make it so difficult? My sister had nothing too unusual for a first birth, although even longer than what seems the customary (if unthinkable) 36 hours, but it still sounded horrendous and she still [3 months on] has ongoing problems and, to be frank, damage, that is also apparently just to be accepted as normal and common and "not too bad".

Still, we all sail merrily on towards it (possibly) hoping that our own situation will be different!

Anyway, enough of this - first things first! You sound admirably positive and like you're doing just the right thing, CHW, and fingers crossed that a much more fulfilling job will come along (and that the book progresses apace!) - often these things do work out for the best in the end. Lots of good vibes over the air!

Thanks for the good vibes, they are very much appreciated! I am trying to be positive, and I am generally anyway, as being negative just makes matters worse instead of better and it becomes a vicious circle. Hence, positive is currently my middle name.
I am meant to be working on my book right now but have god sidetracked reading about diabetics giving birth on MN. They sound utterly horrific! I have always said that there must be surely something wrong with the whole childbirth business, it's barbaric indeed! My friend had a forceps delivery, which I didn't realise involved cutting her to get the forceps in and then cutting again to get the forceps and the baby out. And they dislocated something or other and she has had mild back problems since. And, yep, this is considered 'normal.' Bonkers.
What's possibly even more bonkers is that people like you and me seem to be considering doing it ourselves. Hmmm... Good luck!

Hi all,

I also though, oh, I'll wander over to the pregnancy and childbirth threads for a bit of research....NEVER, EVER AGAIN. Did you read the thread on 'things they never told you about pregnancy'? For the love of God, its horrific. The stuff of nightmares. But it was like a car crash, I couldnt tear my eyes away.

Glad to hear about the positive energy....Im sorry to say that I cant join in, as Im feeling a bit 'tired and emotional'.

Long story short (because Im pretending to be on Facebook), I had my discussion with DH last night and truth be told it went as expected. Same old same old. I have to make my mind up what I want because until I decide what I want we arent going to move forward. I swear he goes into work mode with me, like we are in a meeting or something, working through an agenda. The best bit was when he actually went pale at the cost of childcare 'Its about £600 a month, right' 'Er, no, closer to £800'. That really put a spanner in the works, the phrase 'bread-line' was used.

Anyway, it ended in tears (mine) and frustration (his). Not sure how we are ever going to sort all this out.

Enough of me - hope everyone else is in a better place (and just be thankful we havent currently got stitched foo-foos, seriously, stay away from those threads).

HoneyPetal - I really feel for you. This sounds so like conversations I've had with DH. It wasn't exactly money that was the sticking point with us - but I can see that must be especially hard as money can be made to seem so absolute and non-negotiable and gives the person wielding that particular argument the (false) authority of being 'realistic' and 'sensible' etc. (As if it's the be-all and end-all...) I found out a couple of slightly scary home truths about our (or rather his) financial situation tonight from DH so think it may become an issue soon, but in the past when we had similar unpleasant conversations about the kids issue, invariably ending with me in tears and him stony-faced, it was simply that he claimed to not be able to imagine anything worse than having children, full stop. I don't know how far we're over this, but as I said earlier, he seems to have mellowed, or at least resigned himself. I have found it really hard to make this decision by myself, and to feel as though I'm going to have take full responsibility for it. But I do comfort myself with the old cliche, that so many couples I know have borne out in reality, that men do get committed and bowled over if and when a baby does actually arrive (and in practice usually fairly early into the pregnancy). No help in the immediate term though - bloody tough for you - really sorry things didn't go to plan.

Oh no, HoneyPetal! What a pain in the bum! It's very frustrating that he is leaving it all to you, as it is not going to be just you who does all the looking after. And while, as LizBaz points out, he may wonder why he never did it sooner once the baby arrives, that doesn't actually help the process of getting one in the oven (so to speak.)

Money is a major issue for us too and it's awful that childcare is so expensive (or that one of us doesn't earn enough for the other to stay home.) It's also one of the arguments it's very hard to win as it's very valid. However, this doesn't make things any easier. While we can all wait and see how things develop, we don't have all the time in the world either so it would be better to start now in case it takes longer than you think as I am sure LizBaz would vouch.

Ironically, it was my DH who dismissed the money side of things as being a major issue, saying that people can and do cope. I was the one saying that I didn't want to simply 'cope' I wanted to be able to relax and enjoy it. However, all this was said before my current job situation, and now I think a postive test would make him hyperventilate!

On a sort of lighter note, yes I too have read with escalating horror the thread about things they never told you about pregnancy. Jesus. Like you say, perhaps we should be thanking our lucky stars we don't have stitches in places we never knew we had, piles and nipples spraying milk all over the place. And those are just the good bits!

Thanks so much for the understanding words - it sounds a bit naff but it really did make me feel better, and Im grateful. As much as I dont want anyone else to be in my situation, Im glad that Im not alone, IYKWIM! Im sorry you are making the decision alone as well, LizBaz, rest assured Im in the same boat.

DH constantly reiterates that he now would be happy either way, kids or no kids. After the post-wedding delaration of 'no interest' this is a change of heart. But whenever we talk about it he never says any good points to having children, he just goes really weird and stern and a bit cold to be honest, which he is not usually like. The money situation is certainly a problem, we earn what we earn and it wont increase hugely (if at all!) in the next five years. Like LizBaz, I discovered some financial issues on his part that its taken a couple of years of slogging to sort out, which means we are in a much better position than we were then. But that position is far from wealthy.

He does at least agree that time is a huge consideration and seems to understand why Im so stressed. What he really wants is me to make my decision. I know Im a hypocrite as Im struggling with it (see earlier posts!) but Im getting more and more frustrated and stressed.

Anyway, I feel a bit better since the weekend. And the atmosphere is returning to normality in the house.

On something different - does anyone know if the pill is thought or even known to suppress the desire for children? Am I so pumped with controlling hormones that its affecting my desire to procreate? Probably not, but worth a Google, maybe?

Hi HP and LB,
Glad to be of service and very glad things sound a bit better at your end! Perhaps he too, like us all, is afraid of the massive commitment, loss of freedom and so on and, being a bloke, doesn't think of the more positive aspects in the same way. When I dither, I think of what 'pawsandclaws' wrote and assure myself that she surely know's more about it than me?

As for the pill, no idea if it supresses urges. It seems to do all manner of things and effect people in different ways so it is surely possible. (Maybe your DH is secretly on Microgynon - count your packets
One thing I did discover when i came off (had to due to age and being diabetic, sorry if mentioned this before) is that my libido went bananas. I had been on the pill for so long, over 18 years, that i had no idea it was doing that (and perhaps it didn't when I first went on it.)

Ooooh, interesting. So, did your libido go up when you came off the pill??
And also, you were on it for ages (like me), did AF return quickly after you stopped?
(God, hope thats not too cheeky!)