Very worried about child with nanny - any advice? Long post!!

[Possiblyparanoid]

I'm in a really awkward situation. We have had our nanny almost a year and have 3 children, the eldest two are fine with the nanny but have said nanny has become quite strict. The youngest who is 2.5 has for the last couple of months become increasingly upset when the nanny comes. She will start crying when she hears the nanny's voice and has gone from clinging to us and crying, and most recently saying "no not (nannys name)" when nanny arrives to begging to go to bed, even twice has tearfully asked to put clothes on if the nanny has come whilst getting dressed, and once at a meal time had got down from the table but ran back to it and started eating when the nanny arrived.

My partner watched the nanny force food into her mouth last week until she was sick - but stupidly didnt say anything and this week when the nanny arrived I said that the baby really didnt seem to like them at the mo but didnt understand why - the nanny looked uncomfortable but offered no explanation. I have heard the nanny shouting at her on serveral occassions.

It has gotten to the point where we feel terrible leaving our daughter alone with the nanny particularly as the elder 2 are often not around.

The nanny is leaving us in 3 months but I dont think I can cope with seeing our little one so distressed during this time. She is normally so happy, playful & sociable and loves her other babysitter but is totally different when the nanny is here, she seems withdrawn.

My hubby & I have spent the last 2 months saying to each other not to jump to conclusions but something is seriously wrong here. Has anyone got any advice? I have to give one months notice to end contact but wouldn't even know what to say.

I agree Looneytune - PP came on,asked for advice, said she is getting rid of nanny and everyone jumps on her as she is trying to get rid of the nanny without any legal come backs.

I still think legally you cant sack/dismiss the nanny for the force feeding BECAUSE DH was there at the time, and DIDNT say anything.

But you can give notice ( as PP said she is going to do ) and pay the nanny the 4 weeks,rather than get them to work the notice period

Thanks guys was getting a little stressed thinking I had done something wrong here but I'm quite confident I haven't.

As soon as I realised this was more than a case of my child being clingy I had decided not to have nanny back and as pointed out am merely trying to ensure the dismissal is not regarded as "wrongful" - which can be claimed if disciplinery procedure is not followed. Even if you sack someone you have to give them a hearing (so they can put their side of the story) then sack for gross misconduct.

I have had a terrible weekend thinking about this but am kept positive my DD laughing and happy all weekend and realise that there are different ways of dealing with this but sacking with no disciplinery hearing, or any regard for contract, no notice etc saying "You're sacked" is really a bit crazy leaving our family open to more distress.

My dd is now safe and happy, nanny has done wrong, but 2 wrongs don't make a right.

I don't feel I'm a bad parent - I have dealt with this as soon as I realised there was a problem, my only issues as pointed out by Imananny and Looneytune was how to actually deal with the issue of ending the employment formally.

Yes my heart as a parent says SACK, SACK, SACK, don't pay a penny more and feel very angry but my head says as an employer nanny is NOT coming back but deal with ending employment proffessionally.

Not everyone will agree with me and I respect that but don't think personal attacks are necessary - not really very constructive!

Things may have got a bit out of heand in some peoples opinions but I guess as mothers we feel strongly about a child being mistreated.

Having a nanny to look after your children is an emotional issue - so much different from being an employer/boss working in an office.

You are behaving in a responsible mature way PP, and doing things the right way.

Having and choosing a bad nanny/Cm/nursery etc, certainly does NOT make you a bad parent - you did what you thought was best at your children at that time.

Now things have come to light, you are dealing with them prefessionally.

I really hope that you find a lovely nanny who ALL your children feel happy with.

Thank u me too!

so have your rang your nanny,given notice and said that 4 weeks money will be in the post with a letter or else he will be coming in tomorrow?

have you managed to arrange childcare for tomorrow, or can you take a few days off to sort a temp while looking for mary poppins

am going to take this week of while on Mary Poppin search. Just working out exactly what I will be paying before phoning.

many agecnies offer temp nannies while you wait for mary p - esp if they are in a job/have to give notice etc

what area are you in?maybe someone on here can help you?

dittany MY CONTRACT DOESN'T say that
say I can sack outright without following a process and either way he is being dismissed so dont see how this is getting away with behaviour??? If I dont follow disciplinery process may well get done for wrongful dismissal and have to pay the lieu of notice anyway!

In fairness I can sack, and refuse reference or state dismissed at reference but it is beyond my powers to stop the person working in childcare again.

I thought most standard contracts stated instant dismissal for gross misconduct?

Has your nanny been given any prior warnings either verbal or written?

no, no warnings to date. No not a banana, you are still supposed to call disciplinery meeting - I have checked this with an HR manager this afternoon and reviewed my contract carefully.

PP you are doing the right thing, hope the call goes well.

If putting a spoon of food in a child's mouth when the child already had food in their mouth, was listed in PP's contract under Gross Misconduct, then the nanny could have been sacked without notice pay.

The contract did not say that... as with a lot of contracts, the Gross Misconduct section did not include many examples.

PP's contract said (quoting from a previous post)
"My gross misconduct is said to include: theft, drunkeness, illegal drug taking, use of physical punishment, child abuse. "

It is only possibly under the last of those that force feeding could be placed. But Child Abuse on it's own I do not feel is sufficient as an example of Gross Misconduct. It could mean: charged with child abuse (eg, neglect). Or it could mean, the child is at risk of significant harm (see here for some info about what is meant by 'significant harm').
Gross Misconduct section of a written statement should list examples of what the employer feels is sufficiently unacceptable behaviour to warrant suspension on pay pending an investigation, leading to dismissal without notice pay. Two words is not enough in my view.

This contact I located earlier today, it was for someone being employed as a carer - so in many ways it is similar to a nanny contract. The Gross Misconduct section of that specimen contract is much more detailed. It gives at least 10 examples, thus I feel it establishes a general theme - and if any of those examples were to happen, the employee knows that they would face immediate suspension, probably resulting in dismissal.

I don't work in HR or a legal profession. So my view is that of a nanny, and employee. You may not agree with my view... world would be a horrible place if we all agreed all the time.

FOUND IT!!!!!

In the citizens advice handbook unfair dismissal is classed as unfair if on grounds of
*pregnancy or maternity leave
*trying to enforce a legal right
*for taking action over health & safety
*If you work in a shop or a betting worker& refuse to work sundays
*for carrying out your duties as a trustee of an occupational pension fund
*because you are a trade union member or have taken part in trade union activities
*because you have "blown the whistle!"on a matter of public concern at work

After A YEAR: *If your employer hasnot followed proper dismissal or disciplinary proceedures before dismissing you
*If the dismissal is the result of the business you work for having been taken over by a new owner
*if the dismissal is as a result of not declaring a spent conviction

IF THE REASON FOR DISMISSAL WAS NOT ONE IN THE FIRST STEP YOU WILL HAVE HAD TO WORK FOR YOUR EMPLOYER FOR ONE YEAR IN ORDER TO MAKE A CLAIM TO AN EMPLOYMENT TRIBUNAL

Wrongful is different tho and can be claimed under 1 year - it's when your employer hasn't adhered to contract and followed correct procedures.

If you not working this week why not get nanny round for a chat tell him how unhappy you are due to stated problems which you feel are grounds for gross misconduct and that you are seeking legal advice and will let him know outcome by friday, he may panic and resign if he does will do you a favour if not go and see solicitor normally get hour free consultation and take it from there

Off to bed now as been up since 5am but will check tommorrow see if I can find any other useful info for you GOOD LUCK

Thanks busymum, yes called in for disc hearing.

I really feel for you, but you know you have to take action here.

One issue is assertiveness - if that's a problem for you, remember that you have to do it for your children's sake.

If you're worried about where you stand legally, check the contract. If you don't think you have enough hard and fast evidence of misconduct, pay him in lieu of notice if necessary. And make sure you write down details of any incidents.

You need to be brave, but you have to remove him from your lives. However you do it, you will look back and be proud of yourself.

Good luck.

GOOD LUCK for today remember you are employer, you are doing this to protect your children, be strong even if not sure about legal point, you must take a stand, as I said you can always say he is not needed this week which gives you a week to see where you stand legally without forcing issue, but tell him you have great concerns that your children and husband are disclosing information to you that worries you so will have to have a chat about this but it may come to the point where you terminate his contract tell him you will give him definite answer by friday at the latest fingers crossed he resigns when informed you are investigating and saves you hassle and possibly money whatever happens think of it as a learning curve not that you are a failure. I bet your next contract will be much more thorough!!!!!!!

meant to say www.ncma.org.uk may have some good advice for employing future nanny and elements to add into contract

Are you going to call him in.

Talk to him about what he did.

Then sack him?

Or are you going to give him a chance to explain what happened and why?

But if you have already decided to sack him I don't understand the meeting as usually a disciplinary meeting is to air what has been done wrong and give the person the chance to not do it again.

I have to go out now but I wish you luck. Have you arranged for the children to be elsewhere? You really can't do this in front of them but I am sure you know that already.

PosPar, wrongful dismissal is a failure to dismiss in accordance with the terms of the contract. Contractual damages aim to put you in the position you would have been in had the contract been properly performed so if your contract allows you to terminate on 1 months notice, then any wrongful dismissal claim would generally be for failure to pay the 1 months pay.

i wouldn't even be giving someone who has so blatantly abused my child - and even infront of my husband!! any meeting time in my home. he would not be setting foot in my home again.

if i were you i would just phone him, give him his marching orders and pay him his notice - although personally i wouldn't even pay him his notice - he knows what he's done and doubt he'd have the front to even bother you again.

and you have to inform the agency - otherwise he will just move on to the next family and do the same again,