Student midwives say Mumsnet posters on the birth forum just peddle horror stories about birth and midwife bashing WTF?

[Ushy]

This is the link and it made me feel really upset.
They have no idea how traumatic birth can affect people. This forum is one of the few places people can share their experiences without being judged.
www.studentmidwife.net/fob/mumsnet-and-the-promotion-of-medicalised-birth-thoughts.69784/
Not at any point do any of them question whether their apporach is wrong. No - it is all WE need 'empowering' 'educating' 'encouraging' to do things their way.

I did it their way once - big mistake and PTSD. Subsequently went for caesarean and epidural.

What scares me to death is that if I ever had another child, then I could fall into the grips of this lot and I just think that is scary.

Anyone else feel the same?

twofurry,

Theres a thread ongoing about fear of birth atm. The things that I think everyone has expressed on it are:

Being dismissed by HCP
Not being taken seriously and treated as children who are incapable of being able to make an informed decision
Not being able to discuss their fears with anyone - whether they be friends or family due to the taboo.

The problem very much starts with attitudes like those on that thread and an ideological belief that overrides the interests of a patient.

McKayz Fri 08-Jun-12 15:23:13
I actually wonder if they are reading a Mumsnet in a parallel universe. I think there are more post with women saying that they are having to fight for a homebirth or asking for VBAC advice than there are saying they want an ELCS.

And weirdly there are a bunch of people who are both pro-homebirth AND pro-ELCS....

HmmThinkingAboutIT I haven't read that thread as I'm not scared of childbirth and as I have to do it all again in about 3 months I have no intention of inadvertently becoming so, but all of the things that you mention are valid points and I'm not surprised by any of them.

I'm just saying that a general perception that childbirth is automatically going to be horrendous and the impact that this has on how women approach childbirth is also a valid point for discussion.

A quick look at the first page of threads in childbirth shows a roughly 50/50 mix of VB and CS threads. Some homebirth some in hospital some vbac some elcs. A good mix and people getting answers and advice they are looking for.

So what exactly are they reading then?

The linked student midwife was however hostile. She was talking about spamming MN in retaliation. She was not talking about thoughtful expert posting (of which there is already a great deal on MN, if she had bothered to read further) nor of how to offer or tailor support.

I think she might be better off in a different role than midwifery.

I didn't read it as hostile, I read it that she was saddened by what she was reading and that women were having to turn to each other and not being supported properly by HCP. She specifically asks 'Are we failing women?'

Surely that's a question we want midwives to be asking themselves?

(I'm not actually the midwife in question btw, just a women who happens to think that it's quite shit that so many women automatically assume that giving birth is going to be awful.)

Think that's bad? Not quite as frightening as http://themidwiferysanctuary.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7335 this crowd of misogynistic midwives

Oops won't do link on phone...

Tbh I would love some of the posters on that midwife thread to take a piece of their own advice and Educate Empower Encourage Engage ON MUMSNET with women who are tocophobic, and to do so with an openmind, instead of running off back to their own little world where they all have an ideological preference for a VB.

One of the reasons I've continued to post on here has been precisely to try and increase awareness and to express feelings that aren't anywhere else in the hope that woman realise they are 'normal' and so that any HCP reading might get an idea of the thought process outside their work environment. I seriously doubt that many women, if any, going through this make formal complaints when they come across midwives who don't listen properly to their fears. There is actually very little feedback between the two groups. Even in cases where there might be some sort of feedback survey, the problem is they tend to be done shortly after birth and many women who develop secondary tocophobia don't realise there is a problem immediately or can't identity it as tocophobia and it only becomes apparent some time after the birth of their last child. There is this culture of "you should just be grateful that your child is live and healthy" that hides a lot of problems.

People don't talk about this, and to be honest, a lot don't want to talk about it for any number of reasons. There is a power imbalance in the relationship between a midwife and a patient that does create problems for some. I'm not sure that a lot of women who are going through having tocophobia can talk about it freely and openly about it. There is always a certain amount of pressure that the medics know best, which I don't think is always the case, if they aren't listening or recognising there is a problem in the first place.

I honestly think that any midwife who starts talking about "Too Posh To Push" is professionally compromised and ignorant of the reality and really does need a lesson on what are common themes and motivations for an ELCS request.

thunks I'm going to kill you for that one!!

"Damn those pesky patients spoiling my shift with their diva demands for pain relief. Its there fault they end up with a bad experience. Nothing to do with my foul sympathetic attitude!"

*unsympathetic.

Hmthinking,
I posted this link here couple of days ago, but it didn't generate so much response. Good that Ushy posted it again.
What a bunch of patrnonizing know-it-alls, right?

Thunks,
after reading the first page of that midwife thread, I have to admit, that the fact that it COMPLETELY confirms my idea that most midwives are misogynist sadistic b*s makes me almost smile. My intuition was SO RIGHT!

ARRRGH! How utterly vile! It almost seems like the most evil women become midwives because they enjoy that they can be cruel to other women on daily basis and even get paid for it.

I think they've got a point.

There is profound negativity about birth on these boards.

And if I had a cream bun for every time I've read a post saying 'you wouldn't have a tooth out without pain relief so why have a baby without an epidural', I'd be morbidly obese now instead of just a little bit fat gorgeously svelte.

If you read these boards regularly you might get the impression that the only women who get through labour with emotionally intact are those who have an epidural or those who have short and uncomplicated labours.

In any case - they see that as their role: to protect normal birth. That's the philosophical heart of midwifery.

I suspect that what many on this board would like is to exchange all midwives for obstetric nurses, like they have in other countries. Obstetric nurses are not encouraged to have any opinions about birth other than to do whatever it is the doctor tells them.

Maybe some of you here could start a campaign to bring them back so you wouldn't have to be cared for by midwives.

I have to say it set me back no end. B*tches is right.

I have been really shocked by it, to be honest. I am a HCP in a totally different area (not a nurse) and I swear to God I would never speak or even think of any of my clients like this. It's disgusting. A lot of HCPs regualtory bodies are looking at online behaviour that is unprofessional now and if ever there was an example of it, it's this. It's really bringing their profession into disrepute. I know it's "anonymous" but really? The venom!

The thing that upset me is the idea that panic in labour is because we are all cosseted, posh ladies... when the reality is a lot of women who have deep fear of childbirth or mental health conditions have histories of horrendous abuse, rape and other trauma. The idea that I would be judged for my privileged existence just makes me laugh bitterly.... God, I've done so well to get to this point in my life as strong as I am and I do well in other areas of life but this bit terrifies me.. and woebetide the silly little student cow who thinks she has a clue. To paraphrase those lovely ladies, you think you had a hard shift? Tell it to someone who gives a shit.

Maybe midwifes could understand that its more than about pain though... a lot more. They could protect normal birth a lot more if they were in tune with exactly what bothers woman. Clearly from that thread they just don't have a clue. Its way more than that. I do feel the most frustrating thing and misconception about fear is that it is about pain. And I do think that you are doing exactly the same thing in what you said there Shag, I'm sorry.

Shagmund not all of us have an awful opinion of all midwives, I have tokophobia and am booked for an ELCS and it is because of my fantastic midwife who was kind and compassionate that I got the help I needed when she referred me to her chosen consultant. She has been so supportive of me and my feelings, she has saved me from a nervous breakdown. I will be forever grateful to her.

So maybe what we need is for other midwives to adopt the same attitude and treat all women as individuals and recognise how serious mental health problems can be. As with all jobs, there are some bad apples who let down the fab people like my midwife.

Shagmund,

honestly, the obstretic nurses could be a good solution if midwives are supposed to "protect natural birht" against their patients' wishes. You are actually there to support the birthing woman, but she definitely isn't there to fulfill your idea about what her birth should be like to suit to your ideology. Give me a break.

I think you must all be reading a different link to me, all I can see is a group of midwives concerned about how the Internet affects women's perceptions of childbirth as there is a concentration on the negative. There is some real concern expressed about how poor the standard of ante-natal care is that women feel unable to turn to those looking after them for whatever reason.

I agree Hmm about pain. Pain doesn't even enter into my fear. I laboured without pain relief until nearly 5cms and was managing absolutely FINE but I couldn't handle the experience of a VE while I was in that zone and so I took epidural. I didn't particularly feel like discussing with someone who I'd met a few hours previously why a VE scared and might traumatise me. So I ended up with the "cascade of interventions" and a very traumatic Kielland's forceps delivery... but it was not because of fear of pain.

I think a lot of them discount the impact of being in a situation with a total stranger where your intimate bits are on display and open for all sorts of prodding and poking. The issues some of us have with that sort of thing have nothing to do with prudishness etc. It's a very vulnerable time. I don't see that sensitivity to those possibilities in many of those posts. I know there will be a great many midwives who may have that sensitivity but who wants to take a massive chance on trusting someone when they are really vulnerable and in pain, both of which may be triggering other stuff?

They really need to get a clue, some of them.

thunks I have just caught up and read the link you sent so thanks themidwiferysanctuary.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7335 this crowd of misogynistic midwives

My jaw is still dropped - how can these people call themselves health care professionals?

I take Ariel's point as well though that there are brilliant midwives out there - just why doesn't they do something about the sadistic uncaring ones.

Raluca's right. Is a midwife's job to protect natural birth or to listen to her patient and make sure that she is getting the right care for her?

Certainly saying things like "oh well it was her fault" attaches blame and suggests weakness. That is DEEPLY unprofessional and indefensible. It is absolutely not acceptable to pass judgment on the way a woman copes in labour (or whether she chooses for whatever reason to go down the ELCS route).

They do realise that actually when they make comments like that they are shooting themselves firmly in the foot, don't they? By making the "midwives are bitches who don't listen" summed up in a couple of sentences.

"if midwives are supposed to "protect natural birht" against their patients' wishes"

It's not their decision as to whether the mother has a c/s, an instrumental birth or an induction, so that's out of their hands anyway.

And tbh, I've yet to meet anyone who actually wants an instrumental birth or an emergency c/s if they could get their baby out safely without it.

"she definitely isn't there to fulfill your idea about what her birth should be like"

It's not the midwife's idea of what birth should be like. It's how the body works, if it's working normally. She's there supposedly to optimise the normal physiology of birth.

That said, if a mother requests an epidural then the buck stops with her. It's not for the midwife to make the decision for her.

Re: tokophobia, I'd suggest that even the most ardent and naive student midwife acknowledges the existence of tokophobia and birth trauma, and I see nothing in their comments to suggest they don't sympathise with women who have mental health needs connected with giving birth.

Shagmund,

the problem is that the midwives on the second thread don't seem to sympathize with ANY WOMEN at all. Have you read what they were laughing about? How can you even defend that?