Student midwives say Mumsnet posters on the birth forum just peddle horror stories about birth and midwife bashing WTF?

[Ushy]

This is the link and it made me feel really upset.
They have no idea how traumatic birth can affect people. This forum is one of the few places people can share their experiences without being judged.
www.studentmidwife.net/fob/mumsnet-and-the-promotion-of-medicalised-birth-thoughts.69784/
Not at any point do any of them question whether their apporach is wrong. No - it is all WE need 'empowering' 'educating' 'encouraging' to do things their way.

I did it their way once - big mistake and PTSD. Subsequently went for caesarean and epidural.

What scares me to death is that if I ever had another child, then I could fall into the grips of this lot and I just think that is scary.

Anyone else feel the same?

I haven't either! I should have put a warning on it, sorry folks.

Some of those comments on the second link were terrible. Most of them really seem to hate women in labour.

Completely inappropriate to bitch about patients like that on a public forum.

I really hope that those midwives are in the minority.

they sounded pretty typical of the MLU I went to who kept telling me that as it was my first labour it would take x long and I wouldn't need pain relief until y o'clock! didn't listen to me when I said I felt unwell (I actually had a fever!)

Monkeymama -they reminded me of one midwife I met during my first labour when I was in very early labour and alone on a ward at night after being induced. It is perhaps telling that her comments and lack of ability to listen to me stick with me even now more than anything the 7 or 8 very caring and professional midwives I met said at other points during just that labour (I have 3 DCs, so have met many midwives since!). Surely midwives, especially those who support physiological birth, realise that women are in an altered and highly sensitive state during labour and that thoughtless comments or actions can have a disproportionate impact? No-one expects them to be perfect all the time, but kind and considerate doesn't seem too much to ask.

MY God what awful people on that thread!! I would not know where to start on commenting on that bunch of dysfunctionsl idiots! Pity anyone in their 'care'

Whats REALLY bad about the second thread is the fact that one of the worst offenders on it is WELL AWARE of the rules of conduct and the NMC guidelines and complained about them.

thread here

Postby Hobo RM » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:19 am
Ha ha @ Witch Hazel saying she has only just joined the site. That aside, I had never seen the explicit advice from the NMC before, I guess the above could fall into being rude about patients or colleagues. I still think it is a load of shite that we are so restricted in what we can and can't say and how we can behave just because of the job we do. Doesn't mean I don't adhere to it, I just think a lot of it is nonsense.

It continues in the same vein.

I'm sorely tempted to make a complaint about it all actually, having read that thread.

Just don't know what to say to it! As I by no means think all midwives are like this, I'm sure there are lots of great ones out there. But the ones posting on that thread are unfeeling and cruel. I don't understand why they ever wanted to be midwives.

That second thread certainly shed some light on my first labour: the midwife who shoved her hand in and squeezed my cervix (?) hard and held it for a very long time, specifically stating that this was to get me used to the feeling.

It was the worst pain I have ever known (worse than pleurisy, worse than surgery without painkillers) and 15 years later I am still wondering why I had to get used to the sensation: there was nothing in the rest of my labour that even vaguely resembled it.

But presumably she felt like those posters that modern women don't experience enough pain, so thought it her duty to widen my horizons.

Fortunately she came off her shift shortly after that - one of the worst arguments for continuity in care that I have ever come across.

That second link is absolutely awful. Calling women 'pathetic' for asking for some pain relief, or even for a drink of water! And justifying it by saying they chose to get pregnant .

I'm sure (or I hope!) it's a minority of midwives who have these views, and people in stressful jobs get frustrated and have to 'vent' sometimes - but that is going way too far in my opinion, and they should realise they're not doing their profession's image any good at all by talking like that on a public forum.

The students have been informed of this thread and invited here. I see someone else got there first... After sleeping on it, I've thought I'd really, really like them to actually get something out of this rather than it be a wholly negative thing.

However I do not feel able to confront the other lot on their forum, given how prolific the posters who contributed to it are, the fact that several of them are mods and have shown blatant disregard, understanding and respect of the NMC guidelines. I, unfortunately, think it would be unproductive to challenge them as much as I think they should be.

I wonder if the students share those views at uni or on placement

"You have a right to discuss on a public forum things that may be distressing to midwives to read, I dont believe we should be banned from discussing our opinions for fear it may upset those who disagree with us as long as we don't do it in a deliberately offensive manner."

This person needs to re-read the NMC code in my opinion and really reflect on the fact that how mothers or pregnant women reading what is written in a public place interpret it is as relevant if not more relevant than whether or not the person writing it feels it is offensive.

I suspect my opinion is going to be very unpopular but here goes :)

I don't think either thread came across as women hating evil midwives. At all. I think they came across as people working in an industry who have a vast array of women coming in, and they witness and experience a vast array of attitudes from those women. I can completely imagine the kind of person they are talking about - the demanding woman who has completely unrealistic expectations of their labour. But then again, I don't completely get this POV that child birth should be pain free either. Or rather, that child birth has to be something you go into with no tolerance for it taking a very long time, or experiencing discomfort and pain until you can take it no more and require whatever relief you need.

We have our own experiences, and anecdotal experiences of our peers.

I have heard enough women at work and friends express these unrealistic expectations of child birth, and I don't understand where they get them from. I think these midwives have a point - they are coming from the perspective of, did you not realise it hurts?? I do - I fully expect it to hurt, and I'll see how I get on and ask for the appropriate help. I have no idea how I will do but my attitude is to see how it goes - maybe it won't be as bad as I think it will be - which is entirely based on TV and an awful lot of threads on here, incidentally.

These midwives were venting, letting off steam - you've no idea how they are/were actually face to face to the women in their care, and there were a lot of balanced views talking about understanding that maybe women who get into a state about the pain are coming more from a place of fear than pain.

As aside, before y'all flame me :) I read a LOT of views from women here on MN before it came time for my booking in appointment. I fully expected a battle on my hands when I spoke about wanting an active, and epidural and stirrup free birth if possible - my midwife couldn't have been nicer, smiling sweetly and giving me a report they'd conducted about how pro they were for everything I had wished for. The point being? From MN, I had expected to be poo-pooed out of that appointment being told I would be confined to a bed and told what to do.

Forgot to mention the super important caveat:

None of those midwives were dismissing real phobia of birth, or fear. Not one. Maybe they could have advocated a line of: we get you're in pain, and afraid, and it's OK to get that all off your chest, but here is a realistic view of what is happening.

And maybe they do do that in the real situation. Who knows - none of us will ever know. I think these midwives are just sick to the back teeth of people who aren't prepared to try, who aren't prepared to go through it for a while. And I am NOT talking about serious situations or horrific pain. I am talking about normal labour pain - what is so bad with the view that you give it a try? We did get pregnant...what did we think it would be like?

Maybe we do need to educate ourselves as well as having expectations that our midwives are patient, caring, understanding and clearly have our welfare and the welfare of our babies as their first priority?

You will always, always get bad, crappy, shitty professions - even in vets, sometimes I am shocked, they come across like they hate animals! But. I refuse to believe all of those midwives actually conduct themselves like that with their service users. I am grateful there are people prepared to help me and I do feel like it is my responsibility to meet them in a middle somewhere that gets me what I want - a birth that is OK for me and my baby.

I suspect however, that this view might be torn apart on this thread but i am not looking for a fight. It's just my view - I expect it to hurt, I expect my midwives to help me get through it, I expect to see how much I can take.

bettybat I respect your opinion and certainly do not wish to 'tear' you apart. However, I just don't understand the defence of the 'you got pg, what did you expect?' perspective.

It's such a ridiculous correlation; it's non-existent really. I mean, I totally expected labour to hurt and actually over-estimated how much pain I'd be in. I just didn't make any connection to the how the baby got inside to how the baby was going to come out! I find this 'punishment' angle really weird. Sex and pregnancy are natural, why say such stupid things about it?

A pleasure/pain dichotomy is an invalid, insensitive point here.

Meant to say 'why DEFEND such stupid points'. It looks like I said what you had written was stupid, which was not my intention. The original point was stupid, not yours.

But Lunarlyte that's just it - that's the whole perspective I come from, and these midwives appear to come from. That it will hurt - that to get pregnant ends in a labour that will hurt.

That is not to say it is a punishment! I can't see anyone saying that aspect of it or advocating that. I see midwives saying - you wanted a baby, you got pregnant, we ALL know how it ends, why are you shocked right now that you are in pain?

If anything - I think it's going to hurt and we women should be fucking revered for this amazing, painful thing we can do :) But still giving it a try and see how we get on as individuals, knowing, labour might hurt like a bitch!

And I thank you for not tearing me a new one :)

Certainly wouldn't want to tear your views apart Betty, everyones entitled to an opinion and you expressed yours sensitively.

I get where you're coming from but some of their comments were not nice to say the least. Someone earlier on this thread drew attention to one of the midwives who posted about women 'pulling the tokophobia card' or words to those effect.

As someone who has tokophobia I find that upsetting and completely lacking in understanding of how deeply tokophobia affects sufferers. It really worries me if some midwives (not all as there are many great ones too) don't recognise or take seriously mental health issues.

Okay Betty, we're obviously reading this from different perspectives. I see a negative subtext which I think I've made quite clear. And you, too, have clarified your point. I'll respectfully leave it there!

Bettybat, it's this idea of "trying" and "taking responsibility" that I find strange.

I didn't manage badly in labour at all really, I had back to back stop-start labour for two weeks (and it was early labour, contractions showed up on the monitor at 40 weeks and 41 weeks when I went in thinking waters were leaking), waters went and then was drip induced and I laboured silently for seven hours on the drip before I got the epidural.

I got told a lot how "well" I was managing. So I guess I was "responsible" etc...

Yet the truth of it all is that I had, unbeknownst to myself at that time, a perinatal anxiety disorder and was actually freaked out of my tiny little mind. Upon delivery I went into an anxiety state. No one knew this. I appeared normal. I have no memory whatsoever of the first 48 hours after my baby's birth and I only really "got" that I had been unwell many, many months later. My desire to "get on with it" and be a "good girl" in the clinical context was really unproductive in many ways. I was so scared of losing control... and yet what that second thread suggests is that there is a culture of seeing a particular type of behaviour in labour as being "good". I have heard many midwives say "oh she did ever so well" or "she was as good in labour". These sorts of value judgments don't seem sensible to me.

Who knows what's actually motivating someone's actions from how they present on the outside? Who decides whether a phobia is real or not, whether panic is real or not etc, whether a woman is "trying hard enough"?

Women choose to have babies because they want children, not labour. They have no idea what they are letting themselves in for really and they bring all that they are, all they ever were, to the experience. Many women feel threatened, intimidated and panicked in the hospital situation and when they are in pain. This is accepted by most professions in this context, patients tend to be scared when in pain. It's just life. Birth also entails a massive role change for many, or an impending shift in the dynamics of their family.. I don't see how it's about "trying" or "responsibility" etc.

Yep - totally agree with Thunks - its children, not labour that 'we' want, right? (Inverted commas there as I don't want to assume this perspective for all). We accept that labour will hurt; we tolerate it. We get through it to have our beautiful rosebud babies!

I was told how well I was doing through-out my 31 hour labour which I got through on G&A. I fucked up my back in the process, begged for someone to help me out, but I honestly think the MWs just thought I was making a big deal out of nothing. Like I was some silly little girl who hadn't understood that childbirth is painful. Of course I understood! But they didn't listen when I told them that there was something wrong with my back.

I was terrified of doing further damage to my back with a second labour and delivery which is why I requested a CS second time. A better experience, but not an easy option by any means. 'No easy way to have a baby' is what one wise Mumsnetter once said.

You can know that labour hurts, but still be shocked by how much it hurts, or scared and panicked by how vulnerable and out-of-control you feel. A little compassion wouldn't go amiss, surely?

I'm not sure either how you distinguish between 'normal labour pain' and 'horrific pain', that's fairly subjective surely, and the only person who knows how much pain she's in and whether she can cope with it is the woman herself. Which is why she should be listened to, not mocked or dismissed.

I'm really shocked at that thread on SMnet. I am a long term poster here and have just started posting on SMnet as I'm starting a midwifery degree in September.

The whole point of a MW is to educate and SUPPORT women in THEIR choices surely? That's certainly why I'm pursuing that career, cos it certainly isn't the money :)

Bettybat, the reason I asked the midwives to come and talk was because I wanted people to actually try and get talking. Not torn apart or being disrespectful. Its very obvious that its a difficult job and at times they are never win.

Some of the comments were an attack on some of the things we said - we were attacked directly. I do feel that those of them refusing to come over here because of hostility need reminding of that minor point. If midwives want respect, then they really need to not do that and do any of the stuff that was on the second thread in particular and to give MN a fair hearing in the first place.

Instead its ended up being a whine about MN, met with stereotyped dismissive responses. Something the midwives themselves are complaining about. It was obvious many of them had never even read the forum or checked to see if the observations of the OP had any accuracy.
They obviously felt wouldn't be feed back here and they wouldn't be accountable for it. They are. And they need to realise that the flippant remarks that were made particularly about fear and weakness are a big deal.

And now there is this shock at how it has been taken with such hostility here.

I'm now left feeling after trying to reach out on this, that once again, more dismissive remarks and not wanting to actually try and do something positive here and be more reassuring.

There was an opportunity and I think a lot of us upset really would feel a lot better if an effort at least was made and we'd be very prepared to listen here now some of us have calmed down. But thats clear that not going to happen.

It very true, that thread has done more harm than good if thats the case.

There are questions I'd really like to ask about some of the points raised in the topic that really bothered people.
For example
I don't think all the highly medicalised birth's on TV help either - parents now see it as their 'right' to demand a pain free birth, epidural or C/S.

Why does this midwife think that women shouldn't have the right to a epidural or a C/S? I don't think that they do expect a pain free birth. And I do object to the misconceptions about it being about pain primarily and that we are all that we are so easily influenced by TV or the media.

Not when I've seen the lengthy discussions and people deliberately coming here to try and get credible and unbiased information as they don't think they can get it elsewhere. Which is one of the answers to the OPs question in the first place.

Another would be, about the relationship between midwifes and consultants.

Put simply it would be nice to be treated as having a little bit more intelligence than that. And it would be really nice it those who made comments that upset, to take proper responsibility for them. And to actually not get into a bitch fest about this, but to actually work together and change some of the negativity that is perceived to be here.

Missed opportunity.

I don't really understand why people feel the need to judge others birthing choices. Natural birth without pain relief, a medicalised birth with epidural or an elective c section are all equally valid and safe choices in our westernised culture. Personally (as someoneone booked in for an elcs due to a previous horrific birth) I couldn't care less if someone wants to sit in their bath mooing along to whale music and umming the baby out of their fanjo. I'd like it if others could offer people like me (at the other end of the spectrum) equal respect. Birth is such a personal thing.

So the only thing I can come back to is it must be budgets and training ... But when you think about all the drunks the nhs treats on a regular basis on a friday and sat night why shouldn't a woman have whatever birth she likes?

Unfortunately the midwives still seem to give everyone who did it without pain relief a pat on the back. Patronisingly.