Student midwives say Mumsnet posters on the birth forum just peddle horror stories about birth and midwife bashing WTF?

[Ushy]

This is the link and it made me feel really upset.
They have no idea how traumatic birth can affect people. This forum is one of the few places people can share their experiences without being judged.
www.studentmidwife.net/fob/mumsnet-and-the-promotion-of-medicalised-birth-thoughts.69784/
Not at any point do any of them question whether their apporach is wrong. No - it is all WE need 'empowering' 'educating' 'encouraging' to do things their way.

I did it their way once - big mistake and PTSD. Subsequently went for caesarean and epidural.

What scares me to death is that if I ever had another child, then I could fall into the grips of this lot and I just think that is scary.

Anyone else feel the same?

Now I've just read one of their latest posts:

".... I refuse to be attacked by the level of aggression displayed on that forum!...

These forum's can be so aggressive at times. So easy to say things behind a computer screen I find...

....Do not let this shake you though. I'm thinking it worth talking to the people who run mumsnet. From what some of those comments things have clearly got out of hand, and I doubt mumsnet would like to be associated with it."

When you read how thoughtful the last few Mners posts are - really looking for a way forward - how can they write things like this? I cannot believe what I am reading...... Do they want to silence us because we don't agree with them?

No Ushy, I think they just don't think it's in any way relevant to them that their midwifery forum upset people, especially as from their perspective it was unintentional. I think they forget that their forum is public.

As for saying the post wasn't aimed at the MN community, tbh I'm baffled. MN is mentioned specifically in the thread title and the OP links to this forum. Why is it a surprise that it's been commented on here and upset some MNetters ?

Especially when it is fairly recognisable who some of the comments, quoted in the original post are by...

bettybat - you are wrong, I am sorry, but references to 'playing the 'primary tokophobia' card' are taken WHOLESALE from the first thread the op linked to. The student mws one, not the other one (and dear god, I had said I wouldn't look at that - and I did. I sat down and CRIED after reading the mocking, jeering comments from MIDWIVES, into whose hands pregnant women put themselves).

I don't now give a shiny shit how educated those Mws consider themselves to be in terms of 'the guardians of physiological birth.' They need to understand, big time and NOW, that there are OTHER FACTORS they need to know about in the care of women giving birth.

EMOTIONAL and MENTAL HEALTH MATTERS. Women are not textbooks. They are not just an agglomeration of hormones. They are PEOPLE and they are entitled to CARE.

That poisonous, jeering post on the second thread (go and read it, you won't believe it) that parodies threads here on MN about traumatic births beggars belief. Ever worried that your mw won't listen to you?? Yeah - well that one wouldn't. And she'd have a bloody great laugh at your expense afterwards.

Which brings me to the question - what the hell are mws scared of, in coming onto a forum like this?? They aren't in labour, in pain, pregnant and scared, and having no choice but to put their care into the hands of mws who think that tokophobia is a lie, that women in pain just aren't tough enough to take it, that asking for water means you're a middle class demanding bitch - and that 'you got pregnant, whatever happens to you is your fault.'

They are SCARED? Bull. Shit. Thank f this pack of woman-haters never got their hands on me. My DS and me were healthy and happy throughout and after birth because of hcps (mainly mws) who gave a shit and LISTENED.

Has anyone pointed out to the midwives on the second thread linked to (not SMNet) that it's being discussed here?

I wonder if some SMNet contributors have not looked at that thread and perhaps do not understand that not all the comments on this thread are about their site.

The second thread was far more shocking, especially as the contributors were qualified MWs, not students.

No I haven't Pesto, as I haven't the confidence to do so.

Frankly I wish I hadn't on the first. I actually thought, naively, I might get a positive response.

Hello all,
this is my first post on mumsnet. I am a midwife and long-standing member of SMNET. I've popped along here as a response to a few of your members who have commented on the SMNET thread that you ahve all been discussing.

I'd like to say thankyou to those who did take time to come along and post on SMNET - we wholeheartedly welcome comments and challenges to our thoughts and practice, and I thought I'd issue the same courtesy - to create a response here, based upon my own thoughts, beliefs and practices as a woman and as a midwife.

The first thing I'd like to say (write?) is that SMNET are in no way affiliated with any other student midwife forum. I, myself, am incredibly shocked and upset at comments highlighted here from another forum site and I really hope that your members realise that not all midwives discuss women in such a derogatory manner.

The thread on SMNET was begun by a registered midwife who is a personal friend of mine. She is a kind hearted and caring woman and works hard to ensure that women feel that their experiences are fulfilling. She is the one person I would go to should I begin to lose my own "midwifery mojo". She truly believes in women's right to choice, and is a true advocate for women. I am upset that her thread, which was begun in good faith in order to promote debate and discussion amongst student and registered midwives, has been taken out of context, and that she herself might be viewed as a midwife who isn't compassionate and caring. The question she posed within the first post aimed to promote debate, which, in turn serves to challenge our views and practice as midwives. It wasn't meant in any way to cause harm or upset any mums out there.

Anyway, getting back on topic...

I really hope that the members of mumsnet don't view all midwives as ogres who work towards an agenda. This really isn't the case.

I, personally, entered into midwifery to be able to support women through the challenges that they may face during pregnancy and birth. I wanted to make even the smallest difference in an extremely flawed system to ensure that women were given really good experiences of birth.

As a midwife, I am told I am the "expert in normal birth". I'd like to think that in many ways I am a lead professional in low-risk pregnancy and birth. However, I do work within a consultant led maternity unit, and so alongside all the promoting of normality, I care for women who are at higher risk of developing complications. I care for women undergoing elective and emergency procedures in theatre, I care for women who require high dependency care with serious complications. I care for women undergoing induction of labour, administering drugs to begin or augment their labours.
I am an expert when it's all normal, but I'm also a skilled practitioner when things aren't so normal. Birth is unpredictable and midwives adapt themselves to the situation, providing the care that the situation requires. So no, we don't all work towards the agenda that we have to reduce the C-section rate or boost figures - we work towards the safe arrival of these precious babies and the health of their mums. It seems that we have a way to go to support mums' emotional and mental wellbeing, and I honestly think the best way to do this is to work together, rather than be seen to be putting everyone into labelled boxes and living in a society of fear and judgement.

I don't buy into the view that women choose to get pregnant, therefore should deal with the consequences, but I do have the view that women are able to be responsible for asking questions of their health professionals and trying to prepare in the best way that they can for the birth of their babies by asking more of their lead carers in pregnancy - again, this boils down to both sides communicating effectively with each other to make the relationship strong and supportive. This may go some way to reduce fear of childbirth and perhaps reduce the trauma of birth for some.

I do think that the media do have some impact on society's view of birth. Of course, we can't blame the media for everything, I know that, but the dramatisation and medicalisation of birth on TV does promote misconceptions surrounding birth.

It really saddens me that women are finding birth so traumatic, and I do hope that you realise that the majority of hospitals do offer a service whereby you can de-brief with a senior midwife, who will talk through your notes and help you to resolve any worries, concerns or trauma surrounding your labour and birth. Of course, this isn't going to help women with primary tocophobia, but that is a complete condition which I won't go into at this point.

The medicalisation of birth is something that I personally do find distressing. There are many women I work with who view intervention as normal, whichto me is distressing. Birth can be a normal, physiological event and there is tons of evidence out there relating stress, anxiety and fear to pathology in childbearing. If we were able to support women better to reduce their fear, perhaps the rates of normal labour and birth would increase... maybe? I dno't know. What I do know is that if you as a woman feel that you've recieved sub-standard care or that your experience has upset you, then you should feel able to speak out to those who matter - the service provider and those giving care.

As I have said, I really hope that you don't believe that all midwives are evil people with agendas to follow. Some of us actually do care about how you feel.

Thanks for reading (if you got this far!)

Missriri

pesto, with the greatest respect in the world, what makes you think mws reading this would make any difference? They have already dealt with real life patients, and decided that they are stupid, moaning, whining, ignorant fools.

Seriously - if they've seen women in labour, in front of them, scared and in pain, and can be as mocking and dismissive as they are on BOTH threads mentioned here - what do you think reading comments here will show them?

Everyone here is slating the student midwives and midwives on their own forums for not recognising that women have individual needs, but you are all more than willing to generalise and tar all midwives and student midwives with the same brush. Interesting.

Kaykay -are they really? I know I haven't if you read through my posts. For example, I highlighted one very positive midwife from the second thread linked to and also mentioned 7-8 very caring and professional midwives I encountered in my first labour.

MissRiri

THANK YOU.

Honestly. It might sound silly, but you have no idea just how much the fact that ONE person has taken the time to actually bother and post. Especially since there is now talk of 'bullying' and reporting to MNHQ.

This is the only place I can talk about this subject with open honesty. The whole thing and the judgment that it involved is difficult to cope with. I know a lot of people feel the same. Its amazing just how many women come here asking the same questions and are always defensive and stressing about defending how they aren't too posh to push. They just want to be listened to not judged.

And the whole thing with that thread, whilst it was trying to provoke debate, was that it managed to do that and was clearly identifiable back to individuals back here.

I have to say I've just burst into tears at your response.

Thank you.

MissRiri,

Thank you for your honest, reasoned and reasonable response. It is a mark of a true professional to engage in this honest, conciliatory way while still allowing for differences of opinion e.g. around medicalisation of birth.

I am disappointed with some of the comments about bullying on the original forum in response to this thread. If a member of my profession had posted in a way that upset potential service users (and I am referring especially here to the second thread) I would be far more inclined to take it up with those unprofessional posters than with the service users in question. Some of the comments on the second thread are so outrageous in particular that I would be reporting them to the NCM and would be mortified I might be tarred by the brush they had chosen to use on behalf of the profession.

MissRiri I read your post and really liked what you said :) I think that you have addressed some of the issues raised; been mindful about the feelings of women on this forum whilst attempting to preserve the reputation of those in your profession.

I had my second baby at Birmingham Women's Hospital and had a wonderful experience there from start to finish. I was cared for by a team of fabulous midwives who listened to me, showed me respect and maintained my dignity. I cannot speak highly enough about them.

My first experience of birth, though, was not good. I will not say where as I do not want to appear insulting on a forum where the hospital in question cannot defend itself. Suffice it to say that I did complain about the care that I received, but the response was (basically) that the care I'd received was standard and defendable and if I had any issues, I was invited to go to the hospital to speak with the HCP's in question. I'm not particulary proud of this, but at the time I just didn't have the strength to go in and face them. So I left it and ensured tat I steered clear of the place second time around.

I suppose that my point - in a round about way - is that midwives make a huge difference to women's experiences of birth, which is why comments made on the links posted here have hurt and offended so many.

Missriri Great post and I am sure we would all have preferred to encounter midwives like you.

Not sure though, that you should be distressed by the 'medicalisation' of birth if by that you mean epidurals and c/s.

I have experienced natural birth - it was the worst experience of my life and left me with PTSD.

I have other children born by c/s and epidural (at the first squeak of pain) and those experiences were infinitely better than natural birth.

Midwives want to educate women but perhaps education needs to work both ways. We are an intelligent advanced species and we are able to use that intelligence to relieve the pain of labour.

You may feel 'normal physiological birth' is very important but we are the ones going through this experience and I found nothing normal, 21st century or empowering about thrashing round in agony like a wounded animal for hours.

I did, though, find the painless birth with epidural a wonderful experience - I felt I was in the 21st century not a victim of brutal stoneage degrading abuse.

So yes, education helps but it needs to work both ways.

Great post by MissRiri. And there was one lovely poster on that second student midwife thread too: that Juliet who tried to bring the whole discussion back to some kind of civilised line- I'm sure she would be great to have beside you on the labour ward.

The rest of that thread I did find a shocking- I think because I also work in a profession where we deal with people, and I would be very shocked if my colleagues posted about their students in a similar vein; in fact, I can't imagine that would happen; it would be seen as unprofessional. Blowing off steam is something you do in private, not on a public forum.

I was lucky enough to labour at a hospital where there were alternatives to a medicalised birth (though mine were somewhat curtailed by my poor health).

Still don't get the midwife who said she was squeezing my cervix to get me used to the sensation- any idea what that would have been about, MissRiri?

One problem with giving birth is that you don't actually know what is normal or necessary so it doesn't occur to you to say "excuse me, are you sure this should be happening" while it is going on or even in the weeks after the birth. It took me a few years of comparing experiences with other mums to realise that this probably was a little unusual- and by then it was too late to bring it up.

'a lil educating may change SOME attitudes'

A little educating may produce a student midwife.

missriri I am glad you decided to post.
I am about to give birth to dc2 at a mlu. I found childbirth far more traumatic than I expected to last time. I knew it would hurt and was quite prepared for this but what was never discussed was how scared this can make you feel, and how easy it is to be overwhelmed by this. I am sure this is partly what led to a nearly 4 hour second stage that ended in episiotomy and ventouse delivery. I remember being told to keep the noise down by one mw at one point. If she'd actually bothered or had the time to bother to spend more than 3 seconds with me she may well have been able to help me get over the terror I was experiencing and so have a more natural, shorter birth with a little less intervention.

During my first pg I never saw the same mw twice, during this pg I have seen one mw twice (once at booking in, once at 37 weeks) the rest all different. So far all except one have been very positive and very helpful. I think continuity of care is a very difficult thing to achieve and so a lot of womens concerns go unaddressed and undiscussed. Until we have an NHS that employs enough midwives to cope with demand, that can give them regular training and skills to keep them up to date (including dealing with people who have had traumas in their past which may affect their ability to give birth or have internal exams), and we stop closing maternity units we will always have a problem.

Ushy, I totally understand where you're coming from, and by me highlighting my distress at medicalisation, what I was trying (and maybe failing dismally) to convey was my distress at the portrayal of medicalised birth (and pathology in childbearing) as the norm.

I am very pro women's choice and can understand that for some women, the "normal labour and birth" that we attempt to promote might not be the wonderful and fulfilling experience that others have.

This is where I try to work WITH women. Part of my role is as their advocate, after all.

I totally agree that education works both ways too, and I do think that the relationship between mums and midwives needs to be a partnership, not a heirarchy - I know that a great many midwives that I know feel the same. I'm not a perfect midwife, but I do try to do my very best for those in my care and I hope that they never feel like I didn't give a poop, because I do, very deeply. (Wow, that makes me sound like a weird saddo). It's been a looong day. :)

Thankyou for your responses to my response. I really do appreciate it.

Maples - I do try to be nice, but I am a cow now and then - mostly to the husband than anyone else though! Ha!

To the person who posted saying that it's difficult to question care (sorry I can't remember who said it), in all honesty, I didn't actually think of it in that way, and you're quite right. I went through 3 years of training and years of practice to gain the knowledge that I have now, and it's remiss of me to assume that women have the knowledge there to be able to confidently question our practices, policies and guidelines. Thankyou for pointing that out to me.

I'm really wondering where we can go from here - what we can do to improve the situation for mums really.
I'd be really interested to see if you have any ideas, but rather than hijack this one, I might pop up a new one tomorrow morning when my eyes aren't quite so squiffy.

Thanks again all.
xx Riri xx

Hi everyone

I'm another SMNET member, and I've been mulling over the discussions taking place all day; I've been trying to work out how to word what I want to say, but I'm at a bit of a dead end so it may come out in a bit of a ramble!

Firstly, I'd like to say that the second link that was posted - to The Midwifery Sanctuary - I personally wouldn't be associated with that site if you paid me, as everything I've ever read on there is either unsupportive to other members or downright offensive about 'service users'! I was just as disgusted as you all are when I read that thread - anonymous or not, talking about women like that is disrespectful.. as well as it causing the minority to make the rest of us look terrible.

But mainly, the reason I made an account was to just say that we are on YOUR side! I am a first year SM, and putting ourselves through the gruelling application, training and then job is not something that I think any sane person would do if they didn't genuinely want to support and empower women! Most days I come home beaming and I feel so unbelievably happy over something tiny - a woman confiding something in me, giving someone the reassurance they need by letting them listen to their babys heartbeat when they're convinced something is wrong, handing over someone's newborn baby and seeing that absolute indescribable joy on their face! Sometimes I come home from placement and cry because I wonder why am I putting myself through this!? Other days, yes, I do get women who come in and it makes me wonder why I bother because they are so rude and dismissive... but I am not so up myself as to assume that I understand why they are like that - whether it's because they've had a bad day or a bad life! However, in my personal life as well as professional I feel I am very good at connecting with anyone and everyone, it's is something I am known for so maybe not everyone finds that so easy.

However, adore my job as I do, yes, sometimes I come home and write a post on SMNET to offload - obviously anonymously, and I certainly don't condone anything that is offensive to service users - but we are human. We all are... SM's, RM's, wannabes, all of us. Sometimes maybe it comes out wrong, sometimes it might not be taken in the way it was meant. I personally thought that our thread on SMNET was more of a cry for help for us, as opposed to a criticism to women! I am happy to see that there are some posters on here 'got' that, but I can also understand that it could be taken the wrong way.

I'm waffling an awful lot here, but what I'm really trying to say is that we do care.. we do want the best for you and it saddens us just as much as all of you when we read a story of someone's birth or ante/postnatal care where they are dissatisfied. I myself have come across midwives who have come across badly to me at first, but like I do with women who walk into my antenatal appointments I try to think about the meaning behind it... I think the majority of the time, we just misunderstand each other; everybody, midiwives and women and their families, can get so caught up in trying to do what's best for everyone that you can get a bit blinkered to other options/opinions.

This thread has made me really sad... I hope through my massive jumble of words you can see that I, and others, really do care. Yes, there are midwives who aren't so good at their job - and that isn't fair, because there are so many amazing people trying to get onto these courses - but there are bad eggs in every profession - try not to tar us all with the same brush.

xxx

MissRiri,

I think the one thing is, that when women are in the care of a midwife I think they feel as if they are obliged to say the 'right things' or are completely unable to talk about other things directly to a midwife or consultant with ease.

The single biggest message that seems to come across about fear and tocophobia when talking on MN is just how taboo it is. Women don't feel able to be honest about it. Either to each other or to those caring for them.

I wonder just how much midwives really get a understanding it because of that. Are they getting a clear picture? How many places are there that actively encourage it in a none face to face way where there is a more level balance of power between HCPs and Midwives/Consultants? How can you talk as equals?

On here I can articulate things, I can be confident and I can show intelligence. Put me in a room with a medic and I turn to a gibbering sobbing wreck, who will nod and often end up saying just about anything to get out of there. I have a problem, and I am an extreme example, but I do think a lot of women really struggle with it once they are full of hormones. I don't think it helps how women are seen and how women are treated as a result.

When midwives complain about the hostility they have directed at them on forums like MN, I wonder how much of it comes because of all of this. Is the anger a direct result of fear and being unable to be assertive in certain situations?

My biggest wish is to get people taking fear a lot more seriously and actually as a risk factor as important as any other physical one - like blood pressure. I think if it is, then it would help massively to break the taboo down.

I've read quite a bit of research coming out of Sweden on the subject. I could bore you to death on the subject It seems that culturally there isn't the same "Too Posh Too Push" thing going on there and there is a bunch of really interesting ideas and conclusions from that. It seems fear is taken a lot more seriously in general. I could be wrong, but its definitely the impression I get.

Its why I really, really take exception to the midwife who flippantly suggested MNetters are Daily Mail readers. I just don't think the subject is being taken seriously.

Sorry, I really could go on for hours about this. I apologise.

I forgot to mention that... I can't lie, the Daily Mail comment also irritated me, you aren't alone one that one. I think it was a misjudged thing to say. x