Student midwives say Mumsnet posters on the birth forum just peddle horror stories about birth and midwife bashing WTF?

[Ushy]

This is the link and it made me feel really upset.
They have no idea how traumatic birth can affect people. This forum is one of the few places people can share their experiences without being judged.
www.studentmidwife.net/fob/mumsnet-and-the-promotion-of-medicalised-birth-thoughts.69784/
Not at any point do any of them question whether their apporach is wrong. No - it is all WE need 'empowering' 'educating' 'encouraging' to do things their way.

I did it their way once - big mistake and PTSD. Subsequently went for caesarean and epidural.

What scares me to death is that if I ever had another child, then I could fall into the grips of this lot and I just think that is scary.

Anyone else feel the same?

Maybe when they're no longer students and their training is complete they will have learned more empathy and understanding of different women's perspectives?

For myself I am about as pro hippy-style birthing as I could possibly be. Homebirth, waterbirth, hypnosis, no examinations -you name it, I am sold.

BUT, if another woman has a totally different perspective and has tokophobia, or is certain she wants a caesarian, or epidural or whatever actually then I would absolutely fight for her right to plan her birth the way she decides and receive unconditional support from those caring for her. I would expect a good midwife to do the same. They do have responsibilities to sensitively impart information to enable informed choices, and this may mean telling women things they don't like (whether it's the risks of a homebirth in a situation where protocol advises against it, or risks of a c-section compared with vaginal birth when a mother first expresses her want for a ELCS). It is also crucial to do their job that they understand how physiological birth works and the potential disadvantages of over-medicalisation or inappropriate intervention. BUT, once a woman has all the info, her decisions must be respected and supported absolutely and without question. That is the mark of a good midwife (or indeed any HCP).

I think the mw need actively listen and reflect upon real life birth stories
it's essential to understand and be respectful to the woman's wishes and preferences

I have been on this site for several years now, and I think there is a good balance between threads about epidurals on request and threads about homebirths/drug free births/moving around in labour. If I was an expectant mum I'd find that reassuring. I'd get far more nervous if there was one distinct party line.

(Don't think I have a particular axe to grind: I'm somebody who didn't feel the need for much in the way of pain relief because the pain wasn't actually that bad.)

One of my personal favourites:

"Today I cared for the most lovely woman who was so relaxed despite difficult situation. She had what you call common sense. Baby was crying but she wasn't freeking out. She handled everything thrown at her with such grace

I have been getting tired of this can't do attitude many women have. Labour ward is full of it. I don't mind a bit of a moan if u are getting on with it but if your moaning is actually stopping u from moving it really gets my goat. "

Yes, because it's a competition and you know everything about both those women, what they are feeling, who they are, why they behave as they do and you are right to judge them .

So you all are actually reading a totally different link to me!

"Whilst I appreciate that (a) I've not personally been through it and don't completely get how difficult pregnancy and labour can be and (b) people are just scared when in pain or seeing loved ones in pain, I do think - Hang on - you chose to get pregnant (or do the deed that gets you pregnant). I didn't ask you to - please take some responsibility for your actions and accept that I dont' have a magic wand."

Wow .

Pesto thats how I feel, if women are informed then their choices should be respected.

And thunks that's just what I was thinking, how can they possibly judge these women fairly when they haven't been caring for them throughout their pregnancies? Obviously that's not achievable or fair to expect them to know the women but that's why surely they cannot adopt this once size fits all approach to us.

I am quite frankly astounded at them. They really don't know how patronising and condescending they are. I read the thread they refer to and did not see their point at all. The OP had been told that because she was moving area she could,'t have her elective caesarean and she was obviously very upset. According to them she just get over herself. Student midwives obv have a lot to learn about patient care and should focus on that instead of "empowering women".

I have had two vaginal deliveries but totally believe in a womans choice of delivery. So angry!

Have you read the post that says if we were allowed to break bones as children we'd cope better in childbirth?

What a load of bloody rubbish!! How the hell does that help exactly?

I'm wondering if some of these midwives on the second thread linked to might benefit from spending a little more time listening to how those they care for feel, really listening, rather than feeling quite so pressurised to fix everything for them. If someone in early labour (or their partner) is fearful, in pain, frustrated, anxious about what happened last time, or whatever then it is understandable that this might manifest as showing up at hospital "too early", demanding an epidural when the midwife thinks it's laughable or whatever. Maybe a bit more compassion and allowing those feelings to be aired without judgement might help, even where the issue cannot be fixed.

"Same on the ward, they expect us to be at their beck and call, and equally can be very pathetic. 'I need some more water', 'The prostin made me get period pains' etc etc

Aaargh!"

OH MY F-ING GOD! how dare a woman need WATER! of all things! what a diva with a rider like that!

Fuck me, just read that second link. I actually had to stop reading it as it was a bit of a dick-swinging competition; a 'who can talk the tough seen-it-all-before-midwife talk'?

I'm not entirely sure these posters should be called midwives, actually ... no, midwives by trade only. These are not the words of true midwives.

I don't understand the link between having sex and the pain of childbirth. Excuse me? At their hearts are they some sort of fearful throwbacks from the Dark Ages who see childbirth as a punishment for having had sex?

Posters on that website should be ASHAMED at their own woeful lack of sympathy/empathy.

I'd like this one please . I think she gets it.

"When I become quite exasperated with a woman, i I go back to the beginning and explain it all again. I also let them get it all off their chests. Sometimes being heard and listened to and acknowledged is enough for the women in our care. I often ask the what they would like me to do, but there are ways of saying this where it is perceived as a positive rather than a negative. After they tell me I explain why I can't do something if I can't. I find making a plan with a woman and her family does help, and let them take the lead. "if you went home, how would you..". Even if it's for them to go home and ring me every hour to let me know how they are getting on. They are frightened and being with us can make them feel safe... And lest we forget, they keep us in a job"

Yes Pesto she is the only one that actually seems to realise that childbirth can be extremely scary.

I had a very easy straightforward 1st birth yet I was bloody terrified.

I have to say I had to stop reading it too. As it was upsetting. And I'm so frightened of encountering this.

Look - I used to be a secondary teacher and you should have heard some of the bitching and steam letting off that happened in the staff-room every day. But in the long run we went into the classroom and busted our arses day in and day out trying to provide a decent education for kids who didn't know the meaning of the word 'respect'. Midwives get treated like shit, and it's part of modern culture not to want to go to any inconvenience for anything if it can possibly be avoided. I think people are less accepting of the normal pain that comes with childbirth. They're less accepting of ageing and death too, which is why we look on these things with more horror and fear than we used to. It's just part of our changing culture, and midwives are walking that line between trying to increase rates of normal birth, meet 'consumer' needs to do everything as easily and as painlessly as possible, avoid putting mother and baby at risk, and doing all this in institutions which are under severe financial pressure.

So yes - sometimes they sound like bitches, but the vast majority are doing their best for mums and babies in difficult circumstances.

I read alot of these forums and really just cannot understand the feeling behind it. Personally for me, if i had to have a section and was in a bed unable to move, pick my baby up, change my pads etc I would find these very traumatising.
Recently we have had a few case of tochophobia, and women getting elective sections, the consultants supporting it because the woman only plan a small family anyway. It really does sadden me
Erm what were you saying Shag about Tocophobia? This one was 'saddened' by it. If you think I could approach someone who would be 'saddened' at how I feel then you are out of your mind. If you think I could feel like I would be treated without judgment or pressure or prejudice, you really don't get it.

i suspect a lot of them are Daily Mail readers!
WHO WOULD LIKE TO JUSTIFY THIS ONE? Good luck. Pushing the "too posh to push" myth.

I don't think all the highly medicalised birth's on TV help either - parents now see it as their 'right' to demand a pain free birth, epidural or C/S.
To be honest, I sometimes feel that women see midwives as 'getting in the way' of them achieving a 'pain free' birth. Education is the way forward - not just aimed at pregnant women but on a societal level.

I've been asking myself this all the time... It's all about educating and empowering women to believe in themselves and their bodies! However it's easier said than done when women have access to these forums that counteract our hard work!

Yes girls all we need is educated as we are stupid. This will stop us having traumatic deliveries, just like that. Magic! We are obviously too thick to be able to make an informed decision of our own accord based on a range of possible outcomes.

Nope what most women want is honest and transparent information they can rely on to not come with judgment of a professional bias or ideology. That means we want midwives to not be 'pro natural' and we want doctors to not be 'pro medicalised'. Instead we have midwife/doctor turf war.

It could be me writing this post I've been browsing this exact same forum a particular thread about a lady expecting her first baby and demanding a section due to fear she'll have awful experiences like her mum and sister!
The advice she was given really broke my heart! In the end I had to stop reading because I just end up getting so ANGRY and frustrated!
SO WHY DIDN'T YOU ADD YOUR OWN POV INSTEAD OF MOANING ABOUT IT ON A MIDWIVES FORUM IF IT BOTHERED YOU THAT MUCH?

I've had four babies. Ive had an epidural, forceps, normal delivery, homebirth, caesarean, spd, episiotomy and two 4.5+kg babies, thus, I CAN empathise with just about everything I see
Translation: "These women are weak. Get on with it you wimp. Suck it up." No not empathetic at all. More competitive birthing. As yes obviously we all have the same level of coping...

I could go on. The tone is just rubbish. They are out of touch with what women who are afraid are saying.

midwives need a safe space to bitch in.

i am yet to work somewhere where the customers weren't bitched about to some extent.

even though they were providing us with work.

hopefully this lot can still turn up to work and provide good care.

we do bitch about MWs sometimes. but mostly MN is all about sharing experiences and helping other mothers get what they want - even if that isn't what we'd want for ourselves necessarily.

we also bitch about consultants to be fair (and i'd bet those student MWs do too!)

Sorry Shagmund but that's ridiculous. I also work with challenging clients and "bust my ass" for them in an woefully inadequately funded service but it is not okay to talk like this about your clients, it is not okay to share these thoughts in a forum potentially accessible to service users and I have NO sympathy for the "midwives get treated like shit" line on this.

Do they? Any more than anyone else in public services? They seem terribly precious to me, suggesting a woman is "pathetic" for wanting a glass of water! Power tripping.

I think MWs or teachers or any other profession do themselves no favours by conducting this sort of airing of opinions in publicly searchable forums on the internet .

Also, as a HCP, "a safe place to bitch" = clinical supervision or peer support, not online on a forum any of us can access. Even within supervision, there are limits and restraints put on how you communicate these thoughts.. you are supposed to reflect, to explore these feelings and learn from them. If you want a full on bitch, tell it to your partner or your mum or your best friend but really, this stuff is vile and to my mind, it shows how the internet can create situations where borderline abusive attitudes are reinforced because people can let it all out and revel in the bravado of their own venom.

As service users, we can say what we like. We don't have that ethical or moral responsibility to these professions. They do. It's unsupportable and I can't understand how anyone can justify it, regardless of their position on birth etc.

if you're desensitized and burnt out to detriment of patients it's time to leave or buck up your ideas

realistically,yes public service is damn hard,but that cannot excuse hard unforgiving attitudes

Shagmund I work in healthcare, not maternity but v demanding, I have NEVER slagged anyone off for asking for pain relief or water.
I have bitched about the fact that I have been at times too busy to get people their water or pain relief without a wait, but not the fact they requested it! FFS! its not okay! no we don't all do it!

Consultants who display a complete lack of listening skills get as much moaning about as midwifes.

I can point midwives who complaining of "midwife bashing" to this if they like.

Best comment I've seen in recent weeks was the consultant in the NE who said to a lady who had been granted an ELCS in London, but moved words to the effect of "We don't do that here, we aren't like London" and refused to support the original decision, leaving her up shit creek at 36weeks and offering no continuity of care what so ever.

That one was special.

I think it's quite bizzare to think that midwives always go down the 'natural birth' route. not in my experience. Maybe student midwives are a little green behind the ears? How many of them have actually given birth themselves do you think?

I wish when I was giving birth that I had midwives who actually gave a fuck about me and who had bothered to come into the room and realise I was in established labour and the fact that I seemed to be doing ok was more an indication that I was using the techniques I had learned myself rather than me just being in early labour and not needing any gas an air.

are they letting us down, yes they frigging are!