Student midwives say Mumsnet posters on the birth forum just peddle horror stories about birth and midwife bashing WTF?

[Ushy]

This is the link and it made me feel really upset.
They have no idea how traumatic birth can affect people. This forum is one of the few places people can share their experiences without being judged.
www.studentmidwife.net/fob/mumsnet-and-the-promotion-of-medicalised-birth-thoughts.69784/
Not at any point do any of them question whether their apporach is wrong. No - it is all WE need 'empowering' 'educating' 'encouraging' to do things their way.

I did it their way once - big mistake and PTSD. Subsequently went for caesarean and epidural.

What scares me to death is that if I ever had another child, then I could fall into the grips of this lot and I just think that is scary.

Anyone else feel the same?

I've had to put in my birth plan not to assume consent for the McRoberts, after a nonsense period of time when they decided my baby was going to be big. (he's now small apparently, but I've kept it in anyway)

Viva, hmm that's what really concerns me -- your last sentence. Overnight and at weekends there may well be no senior doctor around at all. What happens in a serious medical emergency at those times? Pregnancy is so unpredictable and can go wrong so fast.

In my first pregnancy I had fulminating pre-eclampsia at 26 weeks. My DD died, I had a BP of 240/120 (despite being on several different intravenous drugs), pulmonary oedema, HELLP etc etc. The registrar and senior midwife looking after me looked as scared as I was. They did not give me confidence and would not reassure me that I would even survive (I asked). Fortunately this all really kicked off about 8am on a weekday, I think the consultants had already just arrived in the building and were there within minutes.

I was looked after by some wonderful caring midwives on the high dependency unit so I know many are not just skilled in "normal" births (and that they can care a great deal) but I also feel midwives can be too slow to recognise when a "low risk pregnancy" like mine is going badly wrong. I had to call in 3 times (over 5 days) to the community midwife / primary care complaining of headaches and baby not moving before anyone took me seriously. I was already very sick by then and my baby died shortly after. This is why I have lost confidence in the UK system of midwifery lead care for "low risk" pregnancy.

I wanted an ELCS in my next pregnancy precisely because I am scared there would be no-one senior to help (if I needed it in labour) at weekends / overnight. I received this but only because my baby co-operated and was lying transverse at term!

One of my bugbears is that doctors seem so frequently exposed to the abnormal and situations where all is going pear-shaped, that I wonder how their perceptions of risk and attitudes to more normal situations are shaped by that? How many straightforward spontaneous hands-off vaginal deliveries does an obstetrician see in their career? How many water births? If they are not exposed to these things then I wonder if it must be hard to maintain confidence that women's bodies can do what is needed in many situations, and not to reach for drugs, monitors, stirrups and other tools as a first resort if that is not the sort of birth the woman wants.

Pesto, I've not been able to find a link to this annoyingly, but I mentioned before an initiative between doctors and midwives at one hospital that did an 'exchange of knowledge' and basically got midwives to look at things which were normally the consultants area so they better know at which point to call for help, rather than to 'wait and see'. And the consultants did precisely the above. I really wish I could find the article I read about it - both groups were surprised at how much they learnt, it gave them a better working relationship and respect for each other, improved their skills and give them more confidence in the other.

I think there was an improvement in care, but I can't remember the details off the top of my head.

Jules, so sorry to hear your story and about the loss of your dd.

Pestopenguin, both for an instrument al and a normal vaginal delivery. The proceedures to resolve the dystocia are the same for both and that's what she wanted to run through.

Jules125, yes we only have consultants 9-5 and then on call at weekends and at night. But they do the on calls from home, not in the hospital. Not much use if something is going very wrong, very quickly. Some registrars are fab, some not so. And some are fab but just don't have the experience.

I remember some years ago a registrar doing a ve on the lady I was looking after at 3am and found a cord prolapse. She was whispering to me that she had found a prolapse and looked like she was pooing herself. Then she starts shouting for someone to ring the consultant to ask the consultant what to do. I was like ffs, get on the bed we're going to theatre.

I don't act like a doctor, I don't believe I am a doctor. But it does upset me when I see people being so dismissive of midwives' skills, knowledge, etc. I've seen other midwives question doctors decisions and ultimately the midwife has saved that baby's life. I've seen a midwife shove a paediatrician out the way and take over a resuscitation that was been undertaken with a not very good technique and again saved the baby's life.

Jules, just read the rest of your post and realise that you lost your dd. Am so very sorry. It sounds like you were let down by the midwives you spoke to when you rang with concerns over movement and headaches. I can understand you having concerns about midwives abilities to realise that something is going wrong.

Agh, just read my notes and the form I filled in detailing Ds' assisted birth, and seen it has been reinterpreted as 'spontaneous vaginal delivery'!

Okay, the way he was 'assisted' was poor practice but it wasn't even their pct, why have they denied my experience?

Royally pissed off now. And I thought I was over my midwife bashing and starting to see them as real and caring people...........

I just want to thank some of the women on here like Ushy, fruity, and Sioda etc, incredibly eloquent women....I really think you should all join together and get some sort of lobby going for a wider look at women in child birth issues.

I am amazed how some MW on here - altough sound lovely and I would be happy to have one at my side - sound almost brain washed!

However, we are all humans and I think rather like people who have had military experience can tend to carry on things they learn ( shiny shoes, amazing cleanliness, time keeping ) into civi life, so can other people in other professions.

I just want to hug the women above and the others who have provided me with amazing advice and support on these boards.

There have also been boards about how people have also felt conned with CS and ELC, and how their bad VB were worse than their ELC and CS.

But there has also been the converse and thats what makes this forum such an invaluble tool.

It has been of enourmous help to me, who after a so called text book birth was still left traumatised! I think Lulla, you tried to say once that was because I didnt have the right oxy something levels....

But I couldnt praise my community midwife more - nor the two MW who assisted me in labour, they were amazing and I leaned on them much more than I think a regular 1st timer in labour because I had just suddenly lost my brother and we buried him on wed and I gave birth on Sunday.

My MW's and my husband were amazing, it was 6 hours and 20 mins pushing, although I didnt push, my body did a voluntary thing all on its own....My DH massaged me, with oils and the like, I bounced on bals, stayed at home scrubbing floors for two days of mild contrations...did everything by the book really.

I had pethadine, and G and A.

All my other close friends would have litrally died in labour without medical intervntion, so i was soo soo lucky, and lucky with my birth and my MW's.

But still! I simply dont want to put myself in that postion again!

I thikn I am an interesting case as it couldnt have gone better really, and yet it was still too too much.

The birth was my animalistic body , I do not feel empowered by my birth at all, I do not feel proud of myself, I just felt bloody lucky.

BTW - having had contact with three amazing MW's I was shocked by the attitude and level of care I received with a new MW for my latest prgny. It turned out she was also a matron! I have changed back to my original one, i just couldnt imagine the other one at someones side in thier greatest time of need helping them.

I was just so lukcy all round. And it is simply pot luck, I do not want to chance my luck again.

Once again, thank you so much to the amazingly intellegent ladies on here, I really really think you should adovocate for this wider view on childbirth and how alot of women really feel opposed to MW council/ and other sides of the coin.

Starlight do you mind me asking why you wouldn't consent to McRoberts?

Hiya,

I would consent but only after everything else had been tried, and not as a first resort. It's first on the NICE list to try, but the guidelines don't say they should be done in any order.

I had trouble delivering Ds but believe I would not have if I was allowed to do what my instincts were telling me rather than have a number of people grabbing hold of me all over the place and pin me to the bed.

I don't want to go through that again.

Interesting as most shoulder dystocias would resolve through the use of McRoberts alone and is deemed to be the least invasive manoeuvre. Having said that I think all fours can be just as useful and often forgotten when going through the helperr pneumonic.

Starlight
Out of interest, what did you feel that your body needed to do?
The mnemonic for shoulder dystocia can be used in any order, but the manouevres tend to require a McRobert's position with the only difference being the final R, which stands for "Roll" - as in roll onto all four's into what's named the Gaskin Manouevre, so I'd be interested to hear what your body naturally wanted to do to help your baby to be born.

Also, have you addressed the issue of your notes? Obviously I don't know the details of your last birth, but assuming there was a dystocia from what you've written, is the dystocia not written in your notes? Or is it another aspect which hasn't been documented correctly?

Elizaregina Brainwashed? So you don't think that the things that you've learned through your life and experiences influence the way that you think?

I think where people are discussing doctors, some are forgetting that there are many midwives who are more experienced than even the consultants on the unit, just as there are doctors who are more experienced than midwives - it works both ways and experience is as important as academic learning.

When an emergency occurrs in a maternity unit, the whole team attends to resolve it - that's midwives, support staff, all levels of obstetric doctor (if the consultant is on site) and the anaesthetist - these skills combine to ensure that the emergency is dealt with quickly. It's not the case that the midwife pacnics and the doctor swoops in to save the day - everyone plays a part, because we're not an "us" and "them", we are a team.

MissRiri

Yes some of you seem to be. There is one on here who keeps talking as though in a daze swaying not listening to what people are saying...repeating in an almost mad way .....about feel good hormones!

as I said - I had a so called text book birth it couldnt have gone better, I had no " medicalised" intervention, I didnt go throuhg some self forfilling phropecy where my terrible fear made terrible things happen! I was terrified before the labour started but once it started i felt strangly calm as if everything would be ok.
I was massged with oils, put on a ball, walked around etc etc! My MWs were amazing I couldnt have wished for more support, my DH was amazing.

I had a small tear with no stiches and one shot of pethadine.

MW that have come on here in the past, have still tried to tell me that I should have been more this that and the other!

They have not listened to me, and some MW on here come on - say they are listenng then slip in something totally demeaning.

I think its quite obvious ( absoluty NOT speaking for myself here) that alot of women on here are extremly intellegent and highly educated. They have had so called natural labours, they have done thier research they have had both good and bad MW experiences, they can see like everywhere else you get good and bad and they do know what they want. you cant " educate" them anymore.

This is in no way about you Misri - as i said my MW and my community mw ( no 1) coldnt have been better....but dont you think that alot of the comments on that webiste are so deameaning and patronising to women?

Can you see how frightening the attitude is to women who may not be MW's but who are used to reasearching things and finding things out for ourselves using lots of different sources.

The constant idea that we need to be educated is terryfying for some one like me to read. There are alot of threads by natural birthers, its fantastic! Most of us - get that and think its brilliant!

As I said I think I am an interesting case, becasue I had gentle contraction for two days and my fear actually dissapated as soon as it all started, I felt strangely calm, I didnt rush into hospital, my friend who worked on the desk kept calling me to go in, but I didnt, I stayed at home for two days, bouncing on a ball, using a tens machine, feeling in control, then when it really kicked off - i went in, and it was all over in 6 hours with 20 min of my body doing the pushing.

I think my body behaved wonderfully, great on it! My spirit - my brain my self though, does not want to risk it again and I simply dont want it again.

I want an ELC, its not something I take lightly at all, I have been doing alot of research, and there are lots of threads on here about women who have had awful ELC and C sections! Loads of women have come on saying....

" My dreadful VB birth was a million times better than my dreadful ELC".

I just think one or two mw on here who say they are listening actually arnt at all, they are underaluing the women on here - their intellegence nad their problems.

You cannot right off women wanting an ELC which is not all women! Saying they are not educated, or taking things lightly etc. Just the same as most women on here have most certainly not written off all MW or hcp.
The posts I have read from "Pro - choice" women are vigourus - highly researched, open and honest, its frightening that some MW on the other firum have reacted saying its bullying and rude, still insisting that they somehow just dont understand!

Its debate. Debates get heated, debates are to get at the heart and truth of the matter.

MissR

I was told to start pushing because I was fully dilated, despite having very rare and barely noticeable contractions. I was made to lie on my back to do this.

I wanted to get upright. I tried many times but was told if I did so I might tear. Despite this I was allowed to but only for a max of 2 contractions, and then was physically manhandled back onto the bed by the two midwives. Whenever I tried to move I was held down.

What I found was this:

1. When I was upright, my contractions were very marginally stronger, and the second one I was 'allowed' stronger than the first. (so, I think they might have increased in intensity)

2. If I concentrated, I could conjure up a contraction with my mind and make it stronger. A technique I later used for triggering let-down during breastfeeding.

3. When I went to the loo as suggested and was on my own, the contractions were stronger.

4. On my back I was told to hold my legs up by my ears but the lactic acid in my arms was more painful than the contractions and was my focus.

Because nothing much was happening on my back, after 2 hours of pushing the SHO was called and I was told that the baby was distressed. I asked to get upright and use a birthing stool but was told it was too risky.

SHO came, jumped on my abdomen, head out.

Birth recorded as SVD, no mention of fundal pressure or of distressed baby, or even that he spent the next 24 hours throwing up black tar. I was denied access to my notes then and subsequently.

My PPH wasn't even mentioned until 2 days later when mw wrote an entry stating 'on reflection I think blood loss was around 900ml.'

I do get what you're saying Eliza.
I think saying they're brainwashed may be a bold statement, but yes, I think that perhaps some midwives' opinions may come across as a bit vociferous and not taking in the bigger picture - but isn't that as humans as a whole?

Midwives are schooled into maximising the hormonal balance of labour, but I recognise that there are times where this isn't helpful. I call it unique physiology - we're all individual's, so putting people into the same box of order/disorder is futile imo.

When you say that midwifery websites are patronising and demeaning, In relation to one of the threads linked to here, I do agree - In my opinion the second line posted was abusive and made me feel physically sick to read.
The other I really think has been taken a too literally. On SMNET we do try to facilitate debate and we do use bold statements or questions to do so - that's not trying to demean women at all - that's trying to inform our own practice.
Yes, there were responses to that thread which I myself thought "wow, that's harsh" - but by discussing our opinions both as midwives, but also as regular joe's, we can actually change practice. Just being present on this thread has really opened my eyes and changed how i see some situations, which I can take into practice, in the same way that taking part in debates on SMNET does the same.

I know that not all midwives are open to changing their ideas, but I also know a great deal who are, and I think that small changes promote larger ones and that eventually, with a little more openness and willingness to listen to each other, things will change. Perhaps that's a littl idealistic of me, but I'm disgustingly optimistic and like to live in hope.

P.s. the comment on "educate, empower, blah blah blah" was in relation to not only women, in the way of supporting them to make decisions that are right for them, but also in relation to midwives and student midwives. I don't think it was meant to imply that we think that women are stupid and don't know what they want or why they want it.

starlight It's upset me reading that, so no wonder you feel the way you do.
It would be interesting to know if they'd be able to find your notes if you requested a birth reflections session.
Have you've made a complaint about this?
I can see why you'd have a prescriptive birth plan and why you'd object to McRobert's without consent.

MissR

I did get my birth notes 3 years later when I was so difficult in the run up to my dd's birth they 'found' them. Which is why I know what was recorded. (although I didn't ver get the full lot). The SOM dismissed my experience as 'couldn't have happened as it isn't recognised obstetric practice'. In fact, given it happened on a MLU, it was a huge job even getting access to a birth reflections service.

Starlight I hope you don't feel like I'm picking at you I'm just really interested, nowhere in your story (which sounds quite shitty to be fair and completely miles away from the way I practice) is McRoberts mentioned so I'm a little confused as to why that birth experience would lead you to refuse consent for McRoberts until other measures had been employed. McRoberts in my experience is only used for shoulder dystocia ie when the head delivers and the shoulders get stuck and time very quickly becomes of the essence which it doesn't sound like was the case in your last birth.

Benedicts, I think she described it in the fact that she was on her back with her knees up by her ears, with pain from the lactic acid in her arms being worse than contractions in her uterus.

MissRi

I dont know what happens at MW school but from what evidence there is on here and the other threads from some of them do be li deeply flawed and profoundly judgmental thinking. As I said they do not take into account all the different scenarios women have been through and also that some of these women are highly educated, and have done alot of research both on line, real life experiences, tv, research papers, books, talking to HCP at every level.

"I know one thing, that I know nothing" - I think if all us of us keep reminding ourselves of this daily, we would all be more humble and open to ideas.

I think if the initial thread had been more on the lines of " wow, those poor women, some have had horrendous experiences and at the hands of our collegues, what can we do guys? Its not acceptable", There would have been a much more positive response on here.

Women on here are not scaremongering they are re laying good stories and bad. When its bad they are not gloryfying thier horror, and I think anyone in the medical proffession reading these should be thinking what they can do about the awful service some women have recieved.

It makes me shudder to think what has been hidden before the advent of the internet! Women suffering in silence, thinking this is just how it has to be....patted on the back for natural births but equally written off for needing medical intervention, being made to feel like champions for a drug free birth but made to feel like failures for having drugs or anything.

The whole heart and phsycology towards women nad child birth needs to be adressed and modernised as women like thunks, ushy, sodia, are the women who are saying everything I feel, they are speaking for me, and the MW - some of them on here and that other thread, are as far away from vocalising how i feel as they can be.

Yet I am one of thier " service" users, and my NI contributions and my DH are paying for them!

In the context of this thread I'd REALLY like to make book recommendation to anyone interested in risk / protocol / guidelines / biased practice of medicine / patient-doctor relationship / quality of research / evidence based medicine / patient choice / patient centred care - basically anything NHS related. I bought it earlier in the week after reading a newspaper article the author had written and seeing that the reviews were all more than excellent.

I haven't been able to put it down...

The book is "The Patient Paradox - Why Sexed Up Medicine is Bad for Your Health" by Margaret McCartney.

Margaret McCartney is a GP from Glasgow and also a journalist. So the book is focused on GP practice, but I do feel an enormous amount of it could be relevant to maternity care and post-natal care. It links in with a great deal of the thoughts and ideas expressed in this thread. Reading the book after this thread have been enlightening. Its been very good to read after already having expressed a number of the issues it addresses.

Like I say, I really don't think I can recommend it enough and I think I'll probably be shoving it down the throats of everyone I know, as it is THAT good and THAT important. It is one of the best books I have read in a very long time.

I thought that was just an aid to help her push as true McRoberts needs to be done by others. (not excusing the position just the way I read it) I have only ever used McRoberts when I'm concerned the shoulders aren't coming and have a shedload of others in the room. (sorry for talking about you like you aren't int he room starlight!)

BC, my objection is to having anyone touch me or prevent me from listening to my own body. I'm not gung ho about the safety of my baby. THAT baby, whose birth story I have just told was later diagnosed with moderate to severe autism and I don't believe had nothing to do with the birth experience.

The fact I mention McRoberts in my birth plan is due to having been measured large at 36 weeks this time and a bit of drama surrounding blood glucose testing and possible denial of homebirth due to risk of SD. So I researched my options including MR and know I have very strong opinions about how SD shoukd be handled.

There is one more reason. The birth of no.2 was amazing and as I was promised, the mw kept well away from me. She was blardy fantastic actually in getting her obs done etc without me feeling violated. However, the one time she interfered was a mistake IMO. I was giving birth upright in the pool on my knees, and I NEEDED to put my left leg up and put foot on the floor. She worried about my bottom out of the water at a crucial time and grabbed my hip and pushed me down again (gently I hasten to add) and telling me to stay on my knees, overriding my instinct.

Well dd was born superman style with her arm up on the side I instinctively wanted to make more room on.

If there is any concern over the baby not being in an optimal position, I do not want to be manhandled but listened to. I know SD is an emergency situation, but it doesn't mean that a woman's body must instantly be taken control over by people who can't feel what she can in a drug free birth. I can understand why it might be necessary in a high intervention birth however, and I understand that generally that is where SD is more likely to occur.

Some women on here have been through bad service, bad practise and have been butchered, lives put at risk - indeed - lives LOST, and still some people on here dont accpet that and still push x,y and z!

its so shocking!

at one point does someone hold thiEr hands up and say " ok, you have been through enough, we - the medical proffesion f*d up, you have totally understandbly lost faith and trust in us, birth is a lottery, we cant predict how it will end, things do go wrong...maybe an ELC is right for you."
not one MW on here has said that!
Yet how many ladies have said - for them - it was a wonderful experience!

No one has come on here and actually said - " for some women an elc is the way to go definalty".

Its still a rear guard defensive action pushing one side the other way! " we support women but of course an C section can lead to bonding or behaviourl problems"

As Thunks said - alot of women have other things in thier lives! They have usually been through it once - labour - good or bad, it doesnt matter to them to have a B borth - they just want what they want what they know they want!

No that's understandable starlight, I just wanted to get it straight in my mind. I can understand the hands off approach and it's one I practice wherever possible and I certainly don't presume to know what is best for women whilst they are doing their own thing in labour ( I do have a little sympathy for your midwife who did not want your baby exposed to air and then dunked in the pool though, but she should have articulated this to you a bit better or discussed this beforehand). Complicated births are a risk factor in shoulder dystocia, however a I'm sure you're aware the majority of shoulder dystocias occur with no preceding risk factors and it can be one of those completely unpredictable events of childbirth. I wish you the best of luck and hope your birth is everything you want it to be.