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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

BF 'didn't work out' - what does this mean?

222 replies

sasamax · 01/01/2009 13:42

I'm not looking to start an argument - honestly.
If I've heard this phrase once I've heard it a million times. Either this one or 'I couldn't bf'.
But can people please tell me what exactly this means? What happened that meant that bf 'didn't work out'? What was the reason?
Can it really be that common? Far, far, far more people in my life couldn't bf than could - what on earth is the reason for this?
Again - I am really not looking to be inflammatory but all I get when I ask are shrugged shoulders and shaking heads...

OP posts:
chequersandroastedchestnuts · 02/01/2009 20:25

Well this thread was an accident waiting to happen.

StealthPo09IsHere · 02/01/2009 20:43

I assumed TR's post was being sarcastic at the OP - not like her

It may be the case that other people have overcome problems that have meant you have had to stop bf, but when you're in the middle of it and can't see a light at the end of the tunnel I can see why it would all seem overwhelming. I was lucky enough to have a very straightforward bf relationship, but still feared the worst at every 'problem' - assumed a blocked duct would become mastitis, 24 hours away from my baby would lead to the end of bf, teeth would make feeding too painful...you get the idea.
I think most people are saying they wanted to bf and tried their hardest but for whatever reason it didn't work out. And actually, assuming they had all the info and could access help, they're the ones best placed to tell!

jjs2 · 02/01/2009 21:00

The OP has left mumsnet

chequersandroastedchestnuts · 02/01/2009 21:20

Left? Or changed her name to jjst?

chequersandroastedchestnuts · 02/01/2009 21:20

Sorry, jjs2

jjs2 · 02/01/2009 21:35

No

lollipopmother · 02/01/2009 23:02

I've never met anyone in RL that is smug that they've breastfed. I am breastfeeding but I am far from smug, I just thank my lucky stars that my baby knew what to do because if she didn't, we'd be up shit creek. Equally, I so very nearly gave up, cracked bleeding nipples and toe curling pain at the start of each feed made me actually shed tears to start with. It was also my DPs interest and support that helped, and the fact that I didn't have any formula in the house, if it'd been here she would've had it I think. I don't really think there's anything to be smug about tbh.

jjs2 · 02/01/2009 23:56

Neither have I actually.
Usually they seem exhausted and stressed.

lollipopmother · 03/01/2009 00:25

The internet brings out the worst in people - keyboard warriors. Ultimately BFing is great if it's going well, if it isn't then it's a royal pain in the arse (or nipple!).

yarrow5 · 03/01/2009 10:36

As a ff mum, these kind of threads usually get my back up as they tend 2 be very judgemental & end in arguments & nasty comments towards ff. this thread does have these but mostly it has actually offered me reassurance & a sense that the problems i had when trying 2 establish feeding r not uncommon. i experienced many of the same problems which is why it "didn't work out" 4 me. the main 1 being lack of support. we ended up back in hospital due 2 weight loss & jaundice & the nurse on the childrens ward said that 2 or 3 newborns r admitted each week. imo this is mainly due 2 lack of support & is a disgustingly high number.
Thankyou sasamax 4 starting this thread & don't let people upset u. i fully understand your reasons 4 asking your original question & it has helped me 2 know that other people have had the same problems i had.

Maria2007 · 03/01/2009 11:01

I agree that this thread is an accident waiting to happen . Completely emotive subject... bound to lead to hurtful comments. Sasamax, I do think it's a valid question to ask, but it opens a can of worms doesn't it.

It's interesting that at the moments there are 3 separate threads on MN about bf versus formula feeding. The bile found in all of them is incredible, the lack of compassion & understanding also incredible. I have to say, as a breastfeeding mum with many formula-feeding friends, I find it a bit irritated to be honest to be called 'smug' etc etc. People are smug or not smug regardless of whether they breastfeed or not. I've definitely met some breastfeeding-mums who are very smug about it, but I've also met an equal amount of formula-feeding mothers who keep telling me (in a joking matter) that I should stop being a martyr & exhausting myself & should formula-feed, and that I find smug too.

Personally, bf-ing has worked for me. I struggled (which is normal for bf-ing) but was lucky to get excellent support. I know the support makes all the difference. I also know that for many women bf-ing either doesn't work out (it nearly didn't work out many many times for me too, but as I said I had good support) or it makes them unhappy, depressed, tired etc, which is a perfectly valid reason to stop, since in those circumstances bf-ing cannot be a good choice for that particular family. Also (responding to the other thread on these boards) women are perfectly entitled to make this choice without even giving a reason, and without having a sorry tale to tell.

Caz10 · 03/01/2009 14:16

the last two posts are nice .

it is a very emotive subject but i think it is worth having the discussion, as long as it can be done without turning it into an argument.

yarrow5 my friends mum works in childrens A&E and she says the same about 2-3 babies per week admitted with dehydration, when mums have been told by poorly informed HVs etc that breastfeeding is going well. Very scary.

The support you get is key, I have given so many people the details for our local BfN they are probably cursing me! But they really saved it for me, without them I wouldn't have made it past 5-6weeks, whereas now we are still going strong at 12mths and I'm wondering how/when I'll ever stop!

however the flip side to that is that when I was struggling, some of the positive BF support I got was so militant (for want of a better word, I don't mean to be offfensive) that I think it could really have put some people off.

this is a waffle and I'm not sure what I meant to actually say! Just that I think a sensible, non mud slinging discussion of this is good.

sasamaxx · 04/01/2009 14:11

I have just re-registered as I felt I had to say thanks to the posters above for their lovely comments - esp yarrow. It's really made me feel a whole lot better so thanks I did ask mumsnet to remove the thread but they think it contains lots of useful information and don't want to remove this.

I really don't want this thread to be about me but just to explain (if it's not obvious) - I absolutely hate arguments and any kind of confrontation and take things very personally (in other words I'm a total wuss). Therefore, the whole thing was a massive shock to me. I was just hoping a couple of people would let me know what sort of things happen when bf doesn't work out so that I had a better understanding. I really didn't expect to be accused of being a horrible person.

However, much of the thread did turn out to be extremely informative and helpful so maybe it's all been a good thing after all. I wish people didn't have to get aggressive but I'm sure they have their reasons.

Thanks again for all the really nice posts - I've really enjoyed being on mumsnet the last couple of years - gained lots of help and support. I hope that I've helped and supported others too.

keevamum · 04/01/2009 19:54

Welcome back Sasamaxx just wanted to say I really didn't mean to be in any way horrible but I do think you picked a very emotive topic which really does resonate very deeply with people who have tried very hard to breastfeed and things went horribly wrong. I also think if you had posted any other thread you would have received much more positive and supportive responses but unfortunately breastfeeding remains a highly charged issue. We all know it's best for the baby so the amount of guilt you feel by giving up is immense. This is why on the whole anyone who gives up on breast feeding will often skim over details as to why it didn't work out rather than relive the guilt and sadness they may feel over their decision to stop. I don't think it is ever taken lightly.

Anyway, as you pointed out in a reply to me 'We are all Mums going through similar things so we really should be more supportive of each other'. Well I do agree with you and am sorry to have got very defensive about this subject but as already explained it is an emotional and guilt wracked decision to stop and this influenced my replies. But I was saddened by the response that you had left MN as I agree it can provide great support and I would hate for you to leave at least in part because of a comment I said.

I hope that you continue to stick around and maybe next time you and I encounter each other it may be for support or at least a lot more of a pleasant encounter.
Welcome back!

bangandthedirtisgone · 04/01/2009 20:12

I'm lost, if you've been on MN a couple of years than surely you would have been expecting some pretty robust replies to an OP like this?

sasamaxx · 04/01/2009 22:11

Keevamum - oh don't worry at all. I think by the time I responded to your post I was just so defensive that I jumped down your throat. Sorry about that - please don't worry. I need to toughen up anyway (or maybe not start threads in future )
I really didn't appreciate how upset the subject could get people - should have done some homework first really. Sorry if I upset you either by the thread or taking it all so personally. Thanks for the lovely message - I'm sure when we encounter each other again it will be a pleasure.

Bangandthedirtisgone - I should have really, but although I've been on here since 2006, I didn't really post much until recently. I think this is the first thread I've ever started actually. Also, I rarely enter or read 'discussion' type threads (although recently have a little bit). Generally I would be hanging around the 'help - my baby doesn't sleep' type threads or the 'help - my baby hates the car/pram' or 'doesn't eat' ones. People don't really argue or anything on those - just trade advice.
So - I am new to this side of things if you see what I mean?

sasamaxx · 04/01/2009 22:16

My stupid 'new' name makes me look like TKmaxx I just realised

Qally · 10/01/2009 11:09

The length of this may give you some idea why women don't go into detail. They'd be there all year.

My baby was born with a tongue-tie, and the hospital aren't keeping NICE guidelines - they said they'd take another look in 6 weeks. This despite a midwife noting I wasn't able to latch him at all. I was discharged with a handful of syringes and told to keep trying. By day 3 my milk came in and I realised he would starve, so I googled, realised it was NICE guidelines to cut and my son was classic (and becoming jaundiced) and found a private lactation consultant who would. She came day 4, diagnosed 100% tie, cut, said he was now latching and all was well. My godmother (LLL counsellor) came and agreed. But on day 5 he was weighed and he'd dropped from 8.4 to 6.11 lb. He was not hungry at all; slept until woken to feed. She agreed to let me keep trying, waking every 2 hours, so as to avoid hospital, and formula supplementation, and I ordered a pump as backup. Lucky I did, as I realised on day 7 (Sunday, 8 pm) that he wasn't latched at all. He'd been licking the nipple and my milk was rapidly going. He now had a dry mouth, and orange crystals in his urine. That night he had formula, and for the next 2 days, then 2 more mixed, then just the expressed breastmilk, all via bottle. Cups didn't work. Ff didn't suit him at all - he vomited up whole feeds. The plus side was that the bottle taught him to pull the nipple back - yeah, I know people say that's impossible, but there's a study cited in the LLL Book of Breastfeeding Answers stating that this is the case with tongue-tied babies. (I wish I'd had that study when everyone said I was wrong.) Anyway, he macerated the nipple completely - felt like it was jammed in a door, shaped and crimped and with a white stripe blanched across the top. The tongue never came forward at all - he would clamp just behind the nipple with his gums and chew, with his tongue slamming the nipple against the hard palate behind. So I asked the lactation consultant to come back, who said I was 90% there and to keep trying. So I was pumping 5 hours a day, trying to feed, resorting to bottle "top-ups", so sterilising... all on a 2 hour schedule. Then I took him to my GP, who said he was still tied. A thin, "diaphanous" tie had been cut, but a thick bar at the back remained - he wasn't able to use his tongue. He was 5 weeks old. So I rang Mervyn Griffiths in Southanpton, who is the guy who did the studies proving cutting works, and is the sweetest man alive and fitted him in the next day, with an NHS referral from my GP. Voila, he was finally cut successfully, and could bring his tongue forward - but successful latching was still not happening. Another lactation consultant I tried then told me I had to avoid the bottle at all costs or he'd breast refuse (he adores the boob) so I was taking prescription pain meds just to try to breastfeed exclusively. When he began to sleep all hours and barely suckle 4 days in, as an incorrectly latched baby can't get enough milk, I decided her advice was bollocks, and better a healthy bottle-fed baby than a starving boob-fed. So the expressing marathon restarted. Finally, after 5 midwives, 2 lactation consultants, 2 health visitors, and a paediatrician all failed to latch him, and none of the books and DVDs helped, I emailed Dr Jack Newman to ask WTF I did now. He told me to take my baby to the clinic at the John Radcliffe in Oxford - who latched him in 3 minutes.

I'm now driving over twice a week with him which is a 3 hour trip, as I am having to learn how to feed him from scratch as well as unlearn the rubbish I was taught before; that's how fricking useless the help I've had locally has been. I can't replicate a successful latch alone yet, but it's getting better and better. He's now 10 weeks old, and I hope that by 12 or 13 weeks, I should be feeding him just by breast. But at the moment, I'm still pumping. So I too may find it definitively "doesn't work out" for me and he goes on formula. I just can't take much more. My mother has moved in, and my husband is supportive, and he's my first so I have no other babies to worry about. If I had another child, DS would have been on formula within a month, because you could not do this with any other responsibilities.

I'm an intelligent adult. I asked for help, bought books, kept trying. I know breastmilk has as many living white blood cells as blood, that it has cells that fight infections and cancer and that FF babies have a third higher chance of childhood cancers, that it has laxatives, growth hormones, analgesics, and proteins the human body is uniquely placed to digest, whereas formula is pretty indigestible. I know good gut flora results from BM, and that serious digestive ailments are far more likely in FF babies. I know eyesight, orthodontics, weight and intelligence are all adversely affected by ff. I know the most recent studies control for class, parental involvement, and siblings, and still ff babies have a statistically significant decrease in IQ. I know that formula is a dead, hit-and-miss approximation of what is needed to keep a baby in okay health; bm is the living, natural, perfect infusion. I'd hardly go through all this if I didn't know all that.

I imagine women don't go into detail because they, like me, would be there for hours, and because people would find fault no matter what the decision, anyway. I get endless comments when people know the extent of trouble I'm going to - on the one side, people saying I am mad, why not just formula feed, what am I trying to prove, and on the other sanctimonious "good, because most people give up too soon." Yes, that's right, agonising pain, frustration and the need to have 60 hours in a day is a slight hassle women are just unwilling to handle. And even if it's just a choice - what is "just" about it? Whose boobs are they, anyway?

jojoisamum · 10/01/2009 16:00

During a sexual attack my nipples were cut off. Is that a good enough reason? People on this website are too quick to condem if you don't breastfeed or BLW.

Apparently my child is going to have asthma, be obsese and likely to have skin complaints according to some on here.

tiktok · 10/01/2009 16:11

Qally - your story is awesome.

We don't know enough about the really, really difficult bf challenges that come with oral anomalies - most women's breastfeeding challenges are way simpler than yours, and what we could do with would be swift recognition of these truly mega problems and then swift referral to super-experts who deal solely with the hard-to-resolve problems...and you might have had a struggle but not one that was still persisting, weeks and weeks later with all the pain.

jojo - no one needs to decide on the merits of people's reasons for not bf, and any one who condemns (very few people 'condemn' on this website - I hardly ever see it) needs to be aware you can never tell what has happened in someone's background. Like your awful story, it may be one they are not going to broadcast to everyone.

I don't think anyone says that ff babies are going to have any of the conditions you list - these are risks, not guarentees, and show up when large nos. of babies are compared.

tiktok · 10/01/2009 16:21

jojo:

Here is a post of yours from August.

"By jojoisamum on Tue 19-Aug-08 17:36:58
Hello there.

I just wanted to say that I b/f DS for the first 6 days before being hit with a serious infection which put me back in hospital for a week.

I too had to stop feeding myself (couldn't do anything for myself and relied on staff so couldn't ask them to express me on top of everything else). I did hope to express and bin until I was fit again but with the drugs given in hospital and the drugs taken at home for a month meant that my milk just dried up."

How on earth did you manage to feed at all with no nipples?

Or....let me think....you couldnt have been actually inventing the 'sexual attack', could you?

That's lovely (not). I bet it makes women who have actually had a sexual attack involving their breasts feel comforted that you can see you way to making a sick point out of an invented one.

Do feel free to correct me if I am wrong. You might want to think about removing your post if you have second thoughts of course.

pooka · 10/01/2009 16:27

JEsus wept

How awful to make that up.

CharCharGabor · 10/01/2009 16:33
Shock
hercules1 · 10/01/2009 16:38

Oh god, that has god to be the worst I've seen on mumsnet

Mamazon · 10/01/2009 17:06

wow!

i hope that jojo was being melodramatic to try and prove a point.

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