'Woman face' and calming 'Karen' a slur get my back up

[NippyWoowoo]

Am I alone in this? Popular amongst FWR on Mumsnet: talking about what a slur Karen is and stating that drag is offensive as it's 'woman face'.

As a black woman it feels so wrong to me, 'black face' is offensive and harmful, n*er is a slur and harmful. They are both things that have directly been used in the continual dehumanisation and oppression of black people and in perpetuating negative harmful stereotypes that, to this day, negatively affect black people.

Yes women as a sex are oppressed, but it isn't being called 'Karen' that's doing it, nor is is a drag dance-off don't even get me started on the fact that the definition is a Karen is so far removed on here from its actual meaning. WW in this country still have it much easier than ethnic minorities, and quite frankly whenever I see these terms in conversations it makes me realise how far apart our worlds are, and that they have probably never actually experienced discrimination in their life. And no, being called a TERF on Twitter is not comparable either.

Oh great, calling* not 'calming'

I agree, OP

Used to call myself a feminist until I discovered the 'feminists' on MN. I have no interest in their brand of 'feminism' and tbh they make me want to use the word 'Karen'

White feminism has no room for BW

If your odd branch of feminism didn't centre women, you were never a feminist in the first place. Just a meninist.

I'm a WW (this just popped up in active) but I think a 'Karen' is someone who tried to throw her weight around over over POC not just a busybody or pain in the arse.
I'm sorry it's upsetting for you OP - I can see why.

Completely agree.
It really winds me up when I see WW moaning on here about Karen. Its the same problem as the word 'woke'.
Both refer to a black experience that has been taken over and twisted from its original meaning.
For anyone who barges into this thread to have a pop, Karen actually refers to a particular type of white woman who uses people's race as a weapon against them, e.g. the woman dog walker who threatened the black man with the police, saying she would say a black man was hurting her. It's a particular behaviour, it doesn't refer to any white woman who has an opinion.
Woke refers to people waking up to the issues black people face in society- it's not any random 'left' issue that pops up!
Drives me mad.

You’ve posted in Black MN so I’m not sure if you want a response from a middle aged white woman.

I totally agree neither womanface nor Karen compare to black face or the N word. There are significant orders of magnitude in the difference because of the structural inequality faced by people of colour that just doest’t exist for white people.

However I do think that drag and Karen are offensive but on a completely different level on a universal offensive scale.

@Mookie81

Completely agree. It really winds me up when I see WW moaning on here about Karen. Its the same problem as the word 'woke'. Both refer to a black experience that has been taken over and twisted from its original meaning. For anyone who barges into this thread to have a pop, Karen actually refers to a particular type of white woman who uses people's race as a weapon against them, e.g. the woman dog walker who threatened the black man with the police, saying she would say a black man was hurting her. It's a particular behaviour, it doesn't refer to any white woman who has an opinion. Woke refers to people waking up to the issues black people face in society- it's not any random 'left' issue that pops up! Drives me mad.

This this this, alllll of this. And your example of 'Central Park Karen' is a perfect example, as a thread on this not long ago showed it's ugly face, post after post defending her because she MUST have been afraid of a man. It was so upsetting, the way some will apologise for a racist, if they're the 'right' kind of racist.

@GreenLunchBox

I agree, OP

Used to call myself a feminist until I discovered the 'feminists' on MN. I have no interest in their brand of 'feminism' and tbh they make me want to use the word 'Karen'

Yes! Mumsnet feminism is not for me.

I actually thought the term 'Karen' had died down. But thanks to some MN users and their everlasting moaning about how opressive it is (rolls eyes), it'll never die out and they will only have themselves to blame - Karens Karrening.

@Birdy272

If your odd branch of feminism didn't centre women, you were never a feminist in the first place. Just a meninist.

Bye 👋🏽

It really winds me up when I see WW moaning on here about Karen. Its the same problem as the word 'woke.Both refer to a black experience that has been taken over and twisted from its original meaning

Yes. I once tried to explain this on a thread where once again 'woke' was being used an an insult (the irony) and was laughed at. It's infuriating

Completely agree. The “feminism” on here is so myopic.

I m white, so I hope you don't mind me replying. I can see both points of view.

The birth of Karen was racism, and born out of the frustration,fear, and anger against white women weaponising skin colour to get their way (sometimes with fatal consequences) .Those women know very well what they are doing and why they are doing it.There's no denying that and I think if the black community want to keep using the term ,they should be allowed to do so.

However, A LOT of people with their own agendas coopted the term (nothing new there) and use it as an insult or to shut women up. Don't complain, don't speak out,don't question anything.. or you're a Karen. A lot of young people and TRA's use it willy nilly to shut up any woman that might disagree with them. That is the side feminists come from.In the beginning it worked too due to the original meaning of Karen, but I do feel that it has now been diluted and trivialised. All that is in my opinion, the fault of the people that stole it, not black people or feminists.

they will only have themselves to blame - Karens Karrening.

It's nearly unbelievable that a woman would write this about other women

Women are 💯 entitled to object to the use of a woman's name being used as shorthand for a type of poor behaviour.

@NippyWoowoo

What's this 'bye' business about? Can posters not comment?

[quote EarringsandLipstick]@NippyWoowoo

What's this 'bye' business about? Can posters not comment?[/quote]
On the Black Mumsnet board, where I am talking about an issue where I as a black feminist woman find the type of MN feminism exclusive as it ignores the feelings of my race and focuses only on WW, I'm not interested in anyone saying that I (or anyone else on this thread) am not a feminist.

@EarringsandLipstick

they will only have themselves to blame - Karens Karrening.

It's nearly unbelievable that a woman would write this about other women

Women are 💯 entitled to object to the use of a woman's name being used as shorthand for a type of poor behaviour.

And black women are equally entitled to discuss how your interpretation of these terms hurts us. This is BlackMumsmet, it's our space.

I'm only commenting because this is in active, but what is the expectation? that white women have no reaction, no sensitivity at all to being silenced and put down - on the basis that other put downs are worse? ??
That is just not how human nature works.

Tbh , I think feminists could and should make room for the use of Karen in it's original context, by the people that originated it rather than blanket disapproval and rejection based on the principle.

They should and could make room for many other issues and needs that concern black women. And Karen was absolutely born out of need .It's disappointing,excluding ,heartbreaking and marginalising when they don't and from what I understand it's often seen as a betrayal. They often coopt , demand and rely on the support of black women on general feminist issues, but when it's something concerning black women they back off and go "well this is about black women,nothing to do with us/our cause". I've seen some improvements and some voices making room, but it's obvious it's not enough .

@JoyLurking9to5

I'm only commenting because this is in active, but what is the expectation? that white women have no reaction, no sensitivity at all to being silenced and put down - on the basis that other put downs are worse? ?? That is just not how human nature works.

I'm not saying that one is worse than the other. That would suggest a commonality between them.

I'm saying that they're not comparable. Karen is not a slur. 'Woman face' is not a thing.

And black women are equally entitled to discuss how your interpretation of these terms hurts us.

No-one is saying you're not? It's not a race to the bottom.

Using a woman's name to describe behaviour that is wrong is unacceptable. It doesn't detract from any other point you are making.

Karen is not a slur.

Of course it is! If it's used to describe a type of unacceptable behaviour, viz, 'being a Karen', it's a slur

Most def a slur

I once saw a post on MN that claimed that Karen is just as bad as, if not worse than, the n word.

Here's a hint. If you can type out the word Karen in full but not the n word, they are not the same.

@amoosee

I once saw a post on MN that claimed that Karen is just as bad as, if not worse than, the n word.

Here's a hint. If you can type out the word Karen in full but not the n word, they are not the same.

This is what annoys me, the fact that the way it's spoken about it's as though it's on par with the n word.

People even write TERF as T**F! Ffs