'Woman face' and calming 'Karen' a slur get my back up

[NippyWoowoo]

Am I alone in this? Popular amongst FWR on Mumsnet: talking about what a slur Karen is and stating that drag is offensive as it's 'woman face'.

As a black woman it feels so wrong to me, 'black face' is offensive and harmful, n*er is a slur and harmful. They are both things that have directly been used in the continual dehumanisation and oppression of black people and in perpetuating negative harmful stereotypes that, to this day, negatively affect black people.

Yes women as a sex are oppressed, but it isn't being called 'Karen' that's doing it, nor is is a drag dance-off don't even get me started on the fact that the definition is a Karen is so far removed on here from its actual meaning. WW in this country still have it much easier than ethnic minorities, and quite frankly whenever I see these terms in conversations it makes me realise how far apart our worlds are, and that they have probably never actually experienced discrimination in their life. And no, being called a TERF on Twitter is not comparable either.

@PlasticPlantsDontDie some black posters stop posting also to protect their mental health.

This thread is a clear example of it.

@BluKorner sometimes you should ignore people especially when they display their racism behaviour.

@RedWingBoots You’re right - I shouldn’t have bothered engaging with certain PPs on this thread!

@Groomofthestool

Most def a slur

It's a slur. However like any describing word that may be offensive. If you get called a K.... its highly likely you are being one!

Life goes on

@ThreeLocusts

I'm baffled at the vitriol here. Of course the n word is a worse slur than 'Karen', and of course blackface has a worse history than drag. The sad thing about drag is that it has gone from being subversive to being just self-indulgent and yes, sexist. Times change.

I'm white (and female) and know that there is a world of painful experience of women of colour out there that I am spared. But why therefore dismiss the potential of drag and the Karen slur to offend altogether?

I'm of 'Karen' age now and the extra dismissiveness applied to older women is fucking tiring. Of course the 'Karen' cliche makes it easier to delegitimise complaints by women my age even if well-founded, and I don't think that can be a good thing, even if it applies to relatively privileged white women.

This argument will ever make sense you don't see that do you. Why have you come on to a black thread? There's numerous posts stating to refrain from doing so yet you have.

Your laughable you be quick enough to defend K.... because it applies to a WW.

But there was a recent thread on here not too long ago and many people WW were quite clearly defending racism from the OP and usually MN is autism friendly and so caring but because it was a black parent. The WW were not interested in the fact that the child was austic and black.

I'm sorry but it's if the shoe fits!

This thread is weird. The assertion that finding the used of Karen and finding drag offensive means your are belittling racism and are probably a Karen anyway - the old "you deserve it trope" - is so strange. As is tarring everyone on the FWR as "Karens".

When anyone says otherwise they are asked to get out the thread.

Hypocrisy.

I'm not white BTW, before anyone tells me I'm not allowed in here.

@autienotnaughty

Ww here. Thank you for this post. It's important to be reminded/made aware of these issues. I think the term woman's face is extremely offensive to black people. The two are not comparable and to compare drag to racism is deplorable. I do find terms like Karen frustrating as they are a way of quietening woman but again in no way comparable to racial slurs.

I can not stand the feminist group on here. The woman in that group have a very specific ideal of what women should be like and how they should behave and anyone else who dares to think beyond their limited ideology is not included. Not what feminism represents to me at all. I wish mn would shut it down once and for all.

Wow, so you want women shut down because you don't like their opinions. That's reminds me of a certain movement...

@flashbac

This thread is weird. The assertion that finding the used of Karen and finding drag offensive means your are belittling racism and are probably a Karen anyway - the old "you deserve it trope" - is so strange. As is tarring everyone on the FWR as "Karens".

When anyone says otherwise they are asked to get out the thread.

Hypocrisy.

I'm not white BTW, before anyone tells me I'm not allowed in here.

Have you read the OP?

“and quite frankly whenever I see these terms in conversations it makes me realise how far apart our worlds are”

Is it so difficult to understand how BW might consider the complaints of ‘Karen calling’ and drag to be in the realm of “a first world problem”?

@flashbac

This thread is weird. The assertion that finding the used of Karen and finding drag offensive means your are belittling racism and are probably a Karen anyway - the old "you deserve it trope" - is so strange. As is tarring everyone on the FWR as "Karens".

When anyone says otherwise they are asked to get out the thread.

Hypocrisy.

I'm not white BTW, before anyone tells me I'm not allowed in here.

You've ignored the point made by many others on this thread that posters that pop on this thread and others on BMN in general do fall into that camp. Plus use idiotic terms like "woman face"

Wow, so you want women shut down because you don't like their opinions. That's reminds me of a certain movement...

They want white woman to fuck off from a space designated for black woman unless they understand the issues of racism. Some of this lack of understanding is shown by their whataboutery.

@babywalker56

Why can’t black women have a discussion on the Internet without people barging in demanding they won’t be silenced….

Can we not just have our own discussions and disagreements on a board that exists just FOR US without someone trying to infiltrate with the ‘I’m white but/you can’t stop me from talking’ line🙃

It wasn't you that said it, but the op perhaps, dismissed white women's reaction to being minimised and silenced with the label ''karen'' as ''just karens karening'' Wow. That is so deliberately inflammatory.

That combination of dismissiveness and haughty self-righteousness is the recipe for a trolling thread. (Shocking Statement) x (I am the Judge of what's offensive here) + Respect Our Right to Invalidate You = 800 posts.

So disingenuous to dismiss white women's objection to being silenced as ''just karens karening'' and then act violated that they have posted on a thread to object to that..

@RedWingBoots

Wow, so you want women shut down because you don't like their opinions. That's reminds me of a certain movement...

They want white woman to fuck off from a space designated for black woman unless they understand the issues of racism. Some of this lack of understanding is shown by their whataboutery.

I was referring to the poster who said they wanted the feminism board to be SHUT DOWN.

That combination of dismissiveness and haughty self-righteousness is the recipe for a trolling thread. (Shocking Statement) x (I am the Judge of what's offensive here) + Respect Our Right to Invalidate You = 800 posts.

This is so disingenuous it's almost laughable. Nobody said they were the judge of what's offended and absolutely nothing about the OP said anything about wanting the right to invalidate people.

The OP was literally, stop equating the N word with Karen, stop equating "woman face" with blackface. Nothing about the OP defended some sort of right to use the term Karen against white women.

Stop making things up.

I've never seen anyone ever equating the N word with Karen. Anyone using the N word would and should lose their job.

Is it so difficult to understand how BW might consider the complaints of ‘Karen calling’ and drag to be in the realm of “a first world problem”?

It's not hard to understand at all, I completely agree it's a first world problem.

But the truth is many people only have experience of first world problems. As others have said, many of those using the Karen slur as an insult to middle aged women are completely unaware of the original context. I could educate them but if they're minded to try and shut a woman up for expressing a point of view, are they likely to actually care or understand or have any kind of a lightbulb moment over either racism or sexism?

I've never experienced racism (though witnessed and tackled it). Equally whilst I can sympathise with the struggles disabled people face, I'd struggle to truly empathise as it's not an issue that I've experienced either directly or indirectly.

As unpalatable as it may be to you, I'm not in a position to activise for causes that don't directly affect me. I can make a donation to the DEC, I can't home a refugee. I will continue to call out, challenge, tackle racism where I witness it. That is the best I can do and I'm sorry about that,

I find the reference to calling 'women' as a Karen offensive. You don't have the right to tell me what I shouldn't and should find offensive. I find the 'n' word offensive, as well as many other terms. POC don't have the right to dictate to others what they can and can't be upset by. You might think you do, but you really don't......

@WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo

That combination of dismissiveness and haughty self-righteousness is the recipe for a trolling thread. (Shocking Statement) x (I am the Judge of what's offensive here) + Respect Our Right to Invalidate You = 800 posts.

This is so disingenuous it's almost laughable. Nobody said they were the judge of what's offended and absolutely nothing about the OP said anything about wanting the right to invalidate people.

The OP was literally, stop equating the N word with Karen, stop equating "woman face" with blackface. Nothing about the OP defended some sort of right to use the term Karen against white women.

Stop making things up.

I see she got my comment deleted. My message for her to get off the thread still stands 😇

@Livelovebehappy

I find the reference to calling 'women' as a Karen offensive. You don't have the right to tell me what I shouldn't and should find offensive. I find the 'n' word offensive, as well as many other terms. POC don't have the right to dictate to others what they can and can't be upset by. You might think you do, but you really don't......

No, but POC have a right to discuss what bothers us IN OUR SPACE.

See yourself out.

@Livelovebehappy

I find the reference to calling 'women' as a Karen offensive. You don't have the right to tell me what I shouldn't and should find offensive. I find the 'n' word offensive, as well as many other terms. POC don't have the right to dictate to others what they can and can't be upset by. You might think you do, but you really don't......

Is anyone really dictating to you?

The OP expressed how she feels and what I understand to be the scale of difference of perceived injustice. You do know this is a safe space for her to do so?

I see @NippyWoowoo now also got a post deleated, on her own thread. Its ludicrous. Racism on these board continue to be rife. On the thread the other day, that had me suspended was a white woman shouting at an small black autistic girl who had jumped in a puddle to the indignity of the OP, who had proceeded to shout at the child. Further, the OP was aghast at the girls "aggressive" 🙄 father who had the audacity to tell her to stop. She felt ever so intimidates. The black fatjer had then inticed 🙄 a group of "intimidating" 🙄 blck teenagers who had then had a go at her. She was displaying the very typical behaviour both in the park as well as on the thread of the original meaning of Karen. Yet, posters were falling over themselves to defend this appalling behaviour. I had tons of people telling me I was unpleasant, deranged, a drunk etc etc. Yet I am the one who gets suspended. For trying to point out the heinous behaviour of this grown up woman. I was baffled that nMNrs who normally is so so so so protective of SEN children did not have any regard or empathy for this little girl. Does her blackness negate her disability? It is so depressing. And those of us with black children know exactly what went down in that park. It is triggering beyond belief as is some of the comments on this thread.

@Livelovebehappy

I find the reference to calling 'women' as a Karen offensive. You don't have the right to tell me what I shouldn't and should find offensive. I find the 'n' word offensive, as well as many other terms. POC don't have the right to dictate to others what they can and can't be upset by. You might think you do, but you really don't......

And I find people telling others what they can and cannot discuss in their designated space offensive so we're even.

You might think you have the right to tell us what we can discuss here, but you don't. Works both ways.

Does her blackness negate her disability?

@Lndnmummy this thread shows blackness negates womanhood and disability if you are the "average" poster on mumsnet. It highly likely also negates sexual orientation and anything else you can think off.

@Livelovebehappy

I find the reference to calling 'women' as a Karen offensive. You don't have the right to tell me what I shouldn't and should find offensive. I find the 'n' word offensive, as well as many other terms. POC don't have the right to dictate to others what they can and can't be upset by. You might think you do, but you really don't......

This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.This is a place for black mumsnetters.

You aren't black and you aren't being respectful so why are you here?

POC don't have the right to dictate to others what they can and can't be upset by

The irony of this! But hey, guess it’s ok to tell us what’s racism and what isn’t?