'Woman face' and calming 'Karen' a slur get my back up

[NippyWoowoo]

Am I alone in this? Popular amongst FWR on Mumsnet: talking about what a slur Karen is and stating that drag is offensive as it's 'woman face'.

As a black woman it feels so wrong to me, 'black face' is offensive and harmful, n*er is a slur and harmful. They are both things that have directly been used in the continual dehumanisation and oppression of black people and in perpetuating negative harmful stereotypes that, to this day, negatively affect black people.

Yes women as a sex are oppressed, but it isn't being called 'Karen' that's doing it, nor is is a drag dance-off don't even get me started on the fact that the definition is a Karen is so far removed on here from its actual meaning. WW in this country still have it much easier than ethnic minorities, and quite frankly whenever I see these terms in conversations it makes me realise how far apart our worlds are, and that they have probably never actually experienced discrimination in their life. And no, being called a TERF on Twitter is not comparable either.

I have never commented on anything on Black Mumsnet but obviously it does show on trending - perhaps that should be changed.

WOW. Now Mumsnet needs to quiet BMN from trending.

Don't use the fact that it was in 'trending' as an excuse. 'Black Mumsnet' should have clued you in.

Keepitonthedownlow
Stop sending me @ messages. I've asked once before upthread.
Quit the lectures, you think what you are saying is new to me?
Read my post. I said it already. But too full of the need to hector to take in the range of Black Mumsnetters views it seems.

I scroll past Scotsnet and Craicnet on the regular, despite threads appearing on trending. Because I know they're nothing to do with me

Sorry BlackDarner, I misunderstood your point! Trying to join a discussion whilst heavily sleep deprived!

I never said it was new to you, I think you are misinterpreting everything I've posted.

Re the hidden boards, the SEN children board is/was hidden for the the reason that the posters didn't want less informed people commenting. It seems like it might save a bit of aggro from constantly having to defend your boundaries. Just a suggestion, obviously, it would be up to Black Mumsnetters to decide.

Hi op and fellow MN.... as a white women I completely agree with op...
a karen is a women who looks at race and is disgusted by it. She thinks it's a one world race... when we all know full well it's a multi cultural... as a white women I can't stand the way some white women think... I'm in a bi racial relationship ( husband black) and we have 3 beautiful children together... being in a relationship with a black man brings so much attention.... I have been called all sorts but I won't repeat it...

So op I totally agree with you.. I lm so sorry u feel this way. God bless you

Agree that stopping topics from trending keeps them more exclusive, if that’s what you are after.

I would also like to add that if the black community feel like they need to use the term karen them by all means they should use it.

Why isit okay for white people to constantly use the N word and black people cant fall white people karens or crackers?

Have they been distorted though? My understanding was that the words just evolved, as words do. Genuinely curious.

They didn’t just evolve, certainly not “woke.” "Woke" is a word from African American Vernacular English that among Black people in the US has for a long time meant being alert to racial prejudice and discrimination or consciousness of racial issues. Being woke is a good thing. But it has been given a negative connotation by many people, mainly on the political right (in the US anyway), to any kind of social justice position they disagree with. And it’s often used in the feminism section of MN in a negative context for pro-trans views. I’m sure many don’t realize it, but it’s disrespectful to take a word from AAVE that has for a long time been deeply associated with the Civil Rights Movement and “evolve” it into negative usages.

Perhaps not overtly racist, but the “evolution” of woke has been deliberate, and it certainly has racist implications.

This "it was in trending business" that ploppers always go on about.

All sorts of things " trend".

Do you plop on threads from Craicnet and tell the Irish how to think?

Do you tell Step parents how to step parent if you aren't one?

A Helpful Clue:
Read the heading on the Board which is Trending, before you post

We aren't hiding away because some non black person thinks we should .We want other Black Mumsnetters to see us...and friends, (when the thread is relevant)

How dare you tell us that we should be hidden away because YOU can't realise your view is not relevant to a thread, specifically asking for Black women's contributions? The arrogance! And demonstrates a certain demographic of non black woman perfectlly ime.

*Since mostly (white ) men (incels, TRAs etc) have stolen it, and used it to suit THEIR needs.

That however is not the fault of black people and it doesn't negate their need for the term and as a result they shouldn't be prevented/shamed/or forced to shut up for using it.*

But just because some people have taken a word/phrase and twisted the meaning, that doesn’t mean that the word should no longer be used. 10 people could be in a room and have someone explain a new word to them and what it means. 2 people may constantly twist the meaning of the word despite properly understanding it. Should the other 8 people no longer use this word because 2 people are purposely misusing it?

I presume everyone knows the ORIGIN of the word Karen and how it all started. I’ve never heard it be used against someone just to ‘shut them up’ or to stop their voice being heard. This seems like some weird online agenda as I’ve never once heard this in real life. Let’s stop acting like the actual meaning and behaviour of the word isn’t a problem because it is

I scroll past Scotsnet and Craicnet on the regular, despite threads appearing on trending. Because I know they're nothing to do with me

So true. It’s very simple to carry on scrolling when a topic has nothing to do with you and it’s not something you can relate too. You may have the odd read here and there just to see what’s going on, but actually taking the time out to comment when you know you can’t relate? It’s the entitlement for me!

@jadey1991

I would also like to add that if the black community feel like they need to use the term karen them by all means they should use it.

Why isit okay for white people to constantly use the N word and black people cant fall white people karens or crackers?

We dont " feel the need". It's a robust discussion about a certain group of people. Some of whom seem determined to live up to a stereotype. by interrupting a thread, to give their Big Opinion. Seemingly, they just can't help barging in on Black discussions uninvited, because they feel themselves to be So Important..

My name is Karen. If I see it trending I will read and comment, would be pretty odd not to because only people a different colour to me are allowed to discuss the meaning of my actual name.

I've got nothing to add to the Karen debate here, it's all been said. But you don't get to use my name as a sexist insult then bar me from even discussing it.

I'll continue the conversation on parts of the site where everyone can speak.

@OrangeGrovesAplenty

Have they been distorted though? My understanding was that the words just evolved, as words do. Genuinely curious.

They didn’t just evolve, certainly not “woke.” "Woke" is a word from African American Vernacular English that among Black people in the US has for a long time meant being alert to racial prejudice and discrimination or consciousness of racial issues. Being woke is a good thing. But it has been given a negative connotation by many people, mainly on the political right (in the US anyway), to any kind of social justice position they disagree with. And it’s often used in the feminism section of MN in a negative context for pro-trans views. I’m sure many don’t realize it, but it’s disrespectful to take a word from AAVE that has for a long time been deeply associated with the Civil Rights Movement and “evolve” it into negative usages.

Perhaps not overtly racist, but the “evolution” of woke has been deliberate, and it certainly has racist implications.

I think you're too kind. I have pointed it out to those on the 'feminism' board a few times (before I left them to it) and they took great pride/pleasure in telling me tough luck, they enjoy using the word as a slur, each time. They talk about extreme right-wing commentators as allies because they once made an anti-trans comment 🙄. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad and pathetic

@jadey1991

I would also like to add that if the black community feel like they need to use the term karen them by all means they should use it.

Why isit okay for white people to constantly use the N word and black people cant fall white people karens or crackers?

Nobody is fighting for the right to use slurs against white people. That's very different to objecting to the correlation between woman face, Karen etc and terminology that has been used to dehumanise black people for years

@babywalker56

*Since mostly (white ) men (incels, TRAs etc) have stolen it, and used it to suit THEIR needs.

That however is not the fault of black people and it doesn't negate their need for the term and as a result they shouldn't be prevented/shamed/or forced to shut up for using it.*

But just because some people have taken a word/phrase and twisted the meaning, that doesn’t mean that the word should no longer be used. 10 people could be in a room and have someone explain a new word to them and what it means. 2 people may constantly twist the meaning of the word despite properly understanding it. Should the other 8 people no longer use this word because 2 people are purposely misusing it?

I presume everyone knows the ORIGIN of the word Karen and how it all started. I’ve never heard it be used against someone just to ‘shut them up’ or to stop their voice being heard. This seems like some weird online agenda as I’ve never once heard this in real life. Let’s stop acting like the actual meaning and behaviour of the word isn’t a problem because it is

I did say that I don't believe feminists or anyone else should demand that black people stop using it.

Also, you presume wrong. I've had to explain many many times where the term Karen came from,why and how it was used , why it was needed etc. That was around the time when "I hate the term Karen" was every other thread in AIBU. A lot of posters really had no idea .They read the OP or were aware of current usage or some truly misogynistic example and that was the extent of it. Sadly, I can't say my posts had the desired effect. Turns out that even after finding out, a lot of them didn't care.

Yeah, people really do pop onto those boards and give their uninformed opinions. It’s an open, anonymous chat forum. The purpose of trending is to drive traffic and keep conversations lively with lots of diverse opinions.

This is generally good, but there are topics due to controversy or sensitivity where it’s not helpful to roll out the “welcome mat” to whoever is scrolling along. If all the randoms popping in, as is the custom on mumsnet, is ruining your conversation, it’s an available tool at your disposal.

@MorrisZapp

My name is Karen. If I see it trending I will read and comment, would be pretty odd not to because only people a different colour to me are allowed to discuss the meaning of my actual name.

I've got nothing to add to the Karen debate here, it's all been said. But you don't get to use my name as a sexist insult then bar me from even discussing it.

I'll continue the conversation on parts of the site where everyone can speak.

Please give it a rest

I’ve never heard it be used against someone just to ‘shut them up’ or to stop their voice being heard.

I have honestly only ever seen this on MN. Never anywhere else.

@MorrisZapp

My name is Karen. If I see it trending I will read and comment, would be pretty odd not to because only people a different colour to me are allowed to discuss the meaning of my actual name.

I've got nothing to add to the Karen debate here, it's all been said. But you don't get to use my name as a sexist insult then bar me from even discussing it.

I'll continue the conversation on parts of the site where everyone can speak.

😂

Why can’t black women have a discussion on the Internet without people barging in demanding they won’t be silenced….

Can we not just have our own discussions and disagreements on a board that exists just FOR US without someone trying to infiltrate with the ‘I’m white but/you can’t stop me from talking’ line🙃

Hear me out

I am, in a white world, the most "minor" of whites i.e. I have very red hair and pale pale skin.

Even among white people, i am the runt. On adoption forms, along with black Africans, is listed redheads as an exclusive category.
Have you ever heard the term "as welcome as a red-haired stepchild"?
KAREN is not race. SHE is not White. SHE is not Blue or purple.

She is a woman - yes a WOMAN - of no distinct colour or age who acts like an entitled human. Who forgets that we strive for equality.

I'm sorry for those who have the name. I'm also sorry for redheads, black people, women ...

Have you ever heard the term "as welcome as a red-haired stepchild"?

No. HTH.

I’m going to apologise for posting earlier and then continue to read to learn but not comment.

I know if I had spent my lifetime (but knowing it was worse for past lifetimes of my race) being gaslit, stonewalled and experiencing structural inequality physical, emotional, psychological, financial and every other kind of abuse for the colour of my skin I would experience nothing short of complete compassion failure for any perceived toe stubs my oppressor claimed to have experienced while I experienced the equivalent of limb amputation. Being honest I’d be fucking raging as well.

I shouldn’t have offered my two cents worth here. You are absolutely right and I apologise again.