'Woman face' and calming 'Karen' a slur get my back up

[NippyWoowoo]

Am I alone in this? Popular amongst FWR on Mumsnet: talking about what a slur Karen is and stating that drag is offensive as it's 'woman face'.

As a black woman it feels so wrong to me, 'black face' is offensive and harmful, n*er is a slur and harmful. They are both things that have directly been used in the continual dehumanisation and oppression of black people and in perpetuating negative harmful stereotypes that, to this day, negatively affect black people.

Yes women as a sex are oppressed, but it isn't being called 'Karen' that's doing it, nor is is a drag dance-off don't even get me started on the fact that the definition is a Karen is so far removed on here from its actual meaning. WW in this country still have it much easier than ethnic minorities, and quite frankly whenever I see these terms in conversations it makes me realise how far apart our worlds are, and that they have probably never actually experienced discrimination in their life. And no, being called a TERF on Twitter is not comparable either.

And your example of 'Central Park Karen' is a perfect example, as a thread on this not long ago showed it's ugly face, post after post defending her because she MUST have been afraid of a man. It was so upsetting, the way some will apologise for a racist, if they're the 'right' kind of racist

I remember that thread. That was painful to read. Even when faced with in your face, cannot dispute it racism, people defended it.

For so many people, racism doesn’t exist unless it’s an offensive racial slur. For everything else, we need to consider the offender’s intentions and the situation they were in, and give them the benefit of doubt.

Would love to see women on MN take that same approach with men!

[quote Keepitonthedownlow]@TheBlackDarner it says clearly that 'This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful'.

I don't see where anyone has been disrespectful.[/quote]
The black women on this thread, myself included, have stated they are offended and disrespected and do not want white women encroaching on our space with regards to this issue. That should be enough for you.
If men were constantly barging into the Feminism chats with their unwanted opinions they would be up in arms about it.
Show us the same courtesy.
What I've noticed on this site is unless someone is directly saying 'n***' then it can't be racist .

@BluKorner

And your example of 'Central Park Karen' is a perfect example, as a thread on this not long ago showed it's ugly face, post after post defending her because she MUST have been afraid of a man. It was so upsetting, the way some will apologise for a racist, if they're the 'right' kind of racist

I remember that thread. That was painful to read. Even when faced with in your face, cannot dispute it racism, people defended it.

For so many people, racism doesn’t exist unless it’s an offensive racial slur. For everything else, we need to consider the offender’s intentions and the situation they were in, and give them the benefit of doubt.

Would love to see women on MN take that same approach with men!

Cross post!

[quote Keepitonthedownlow]@TheBlackDarner it says clearly that 'This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful'.

I don't see where anyone has been disrespectful.[/quote]
I think continuing to post when you've been asked not to by that the people the board is primarily for, is quite disrespectful tbh.

Go and start a thread somewhere else if you want to air your opinions.

If men were constantly barging into the Feminism chats with their unwanted opinions they would be up in arms about it

There are often MRAs and TRAs popping up on MN. Not surprising WRAs (white rights activists) must have a voice too!

[quote WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo]@TheBlackDarner not in my mind no but some feminists appear to have a very different opinion![/quote]
Ah yes, sadly, their loss, you are right.

wow I’ve finally found my people

@NippyWoowoo you're welcome! I'm still learning and studying myself. I might start a separate thread on it at some point

@Boonlark

Thanks for the reminder of the real origins of "woke" and "Karen". I knew about Karen, but not about woke. It's sickening to see how thoroughly both have been distorted, and especially how they've somehow been whitewashed.

Have they been distorted though? My understanding was that the words just evolved, as words do. Genuinely curious.

Nobody reasonable can compare 'karen' with a racial slur, and anyone who tries to argue that they are the same are bonkers

I agree OP.

why is everyone assuming that if someone disagrees, they are white?

I don’t think ‘Karen’ is equivalent to the n word, but I do think drag is as offensive as blackface. This article explains why, in detail:

scholarship.kentlaw.iit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=3209&context=cklawreview

You may of course feel differently.

[quote Keepitonthedownlow]@TheBlackDarner it says clearly that 'This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful'.

I don't see where anyone has been disrespectful.[/quote]
Don't @ me please.

I'm glad you can read what the board is primarily for. Thanks for explaining it to me. WE asked for the pinned heading because of the contant interruptions. However, certain white women continue to wade into threads which clearly are not seeking their opinion. Stop interrupting on this particular thread please.
And we DO chat on other threads with others who are welome. Have a look.

HOWEVER,
THIS thread is asking for BLACK women's views specifically.
So barging in when it is clear from the Clack women posting that we want to talk to other Black women, is NOT respectful.

@spotcheck I would say so. It was helpful to have someone outline the specific origins of Karen. It's not a term I use myself so i hadn't delved into it that deeply.

Woke though, I can definitely say has been hijacked and distorted. I never ever heard white peoples use the term woke before 2020 and when I do see it used, it's always as a pejorative. A million miles away from its origins.

*Clack? Black ,of course.
Fat fingers, me.

I'm baffled at the vitriol here. Of course the n word is a worse slur than 'Karen', and of course blackface has a worse history than drag. The sad thing about drag is that it has gone from being subversive to being just self-indulgent and yes, sexist. Times change.

I'm white (and female) and know that there is a world of painful experience of women of colour out there that I am spared. But why therefore dismiss the potential of drag and the Karen slur to offend altogether?

I'm of 'Karen' age now and the extra dismissiveness applied to older women is fucking tiring. Of course the 'Karen' cliche makes it easier to delegitimise complaints by women my age even if well-founded, and I don't think that can be a good thing, even if it applies to relatively privileged white women.

Karen isn't comparable to the N word by any stretch.
"Woman face" isn't even on the same level as black face.
For what it's worth, my real name is also used as a potential slur. It doesn't offend me tbh, I use the name Nigel to mean a bore 🤷🏼‍♀️

THIS thread is asking for BLACK women's views specifically

Hope you didn’t mind my contribution, and apologies if it’s unwanted.

Thank you OP! I was literally wasting my breath on the other thread.

It’s interesting because on MN it seems that people simply love to play oppression olympics. Comparing the use of ‘Karen’ to the N word and saying it’s a slur is genuinely laughable to me. Maybe because as a BW, most of us have had our fair share of experiencing ‘Karen like behaviour’ and have been on the receiving end of such entitlement. I find it interesting how ALL these people that claim that ‘Karen’ is a slur and is a misogynistic term, will focus more on the usuage of the word instead of what it actually represents. I’ve heard people twist the meaning of the word numerous times. ‘Oh it’s said to shut women up’ ‘it’s ageist and is stopping people from saying their opinion in case they’re called a Karen.’ Lol since when?

Yes it’s wrong to use a name to describe this behaviour. Nevertheless, this behaviour should still be recognised and called out, it’s not okay.
I agree so much with this part of your OP👇🏾

and quite frankly whenever I see these terms in conversations it makes me realise how far apart our worlds are, and that they have probably never actually experienced discrimination in their life.

@Keepitonthedownlow

why is everyone assuming that if someone disagrees, they are white?

Ah yes, we usually have this reply too.

Are you a Black woman? Usually first time posters on BMN tend to say that they are Black women. So's we know. Not try and add it in later.

@Neverreturntoathread

I don’t think ‘Karen’ is equivalent to the n word, but I do think drag is as offensive as blackface. This article explains why, in detail:

scholarship.kentlaw.iit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=3209&context=cklawreview

You may of course feel differently.

I do feel differently.

Also, the link doesn't work.

@babywalker56

Thank you OP! I was literally wasting my breath on the other thread.

It’s interesting because on MN it seems that people simply love to play oppression olympics. Comparing the use of ‘Karen’ to the N word and saying it’s a slur is genuinely laughable to me. Maybe because as a BW, most of us have had our fair share of experiencing ‘Karen like behaviour’ and have been on the receiving end of such entitlement. I find it interesting how ALL these people that claim that ‘Karen’ is a slur and is a misogynistic term, will focus more on the usuage of the word instead of what it actually represents. I’ve heard people twist the meaning of the word numerous times. ‘Oh it’s said to shut women up’ ‘it’s ageist and is stopping people from saying their opinion in case they’re called a Karen.’ Lol since when?

Yes it’s wrong to use a name to describe this behaviour. Nevertheless, this behaviour should still be recognised and called out, it’s not okay.
I agree so much with this part of your OP👇🏾

and quite frankly whenever I see these terms in conversations it makes me realise how far apart our worlds are, and that they have probably never actually experienced discrimination in their life.

Since mostly (white ) men (incels, TRAs etc) have stolen it, and used it to suit THEIR needs.

That however is not the fault of black people and it doesn't negate their need for the term and as a result they shouldn't be prevented/shamed/or forced to shut up for using it.

@theblackdarner, respectfully, I'm still not sure why men using the term Karen as a way to attack all women and force them to shut up is helpful to black women.

Using the term Karen to describe a racist white woman is different and any term that highlights racism is useful.

It was that point of clarification that I was raising.

Since you find my presence on the thread disrespectful I'll bow out and just to point out that I have never commented on anything on Black Mumsnet but obviously it does show on trending - perhaps that should be changed.

@BluKorner

THIS thread is asking for BLACK women's views specifically

Hope you didn’t mind my contribution, and apologies if it’s unwanted.

Sorry, I wan't referring to you BluKorner I was responding to someone else who was sending me @ messages.

I'm baffled at the vitriol here.

Because you are lost, this is Black Mumsnet.

Also dislike your use of the word 'vitriol'; it's just black women discussing our feelings.