'Woman face' and calming 'Karen' a slur get my back up

[NippyWoowoo]

Am I alone in this? Popular amongst FWR on Mumsnet: talking about what a slur Karen is and stating that drag is offensive as it's 'woman face'.

As a black woman it feels so wrong to me, 'black face' is offensive and harmful, n*er is a slur and harmful. They are both things that have directly been used in the continual dehumanisation and oppression of black people and in perpetuating negative harmful stereotypes that, to this day, negatively affect black people.

Yes women as a sex are oppressed, but it isn't being called 'Karen' that's doing it, nor is is a drag dance-off don't even get me started on the fact that the definition is a Karen is so far removed on here from its actual meaning. WW in this country still have it much easier than ethnic minorities, and quite frankly whenever I see these terms in conversations it makes me realise how far apart our worlds are, and that they have probably never actually experienced discrimination in their life. And no, being called a TERF on Twitter is not comparable either.

@WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo

I’ve never heard it be used against someone just to ‘shut them up’ or to stop their voice being heard.

I have honestly only ever seen this on MN. Never anywhere else.

Literally! This is why I say it’s oppression olympics!

It’s as if a lot of women want there to be something in place that ‘silences’ them just so they can say ‘hey look at us, we also have a slur so we must be as oppressed as you.’ It’s so strange. I’ve never even met anyone who’s understanding of the term Karen is basically to shut someone up or dismiss their opinion. This idea has apparently come from a popular user online on Reddit and a lot of WW have taken that and just ran with it….

Karen was originally used to describe an awful racist white woman but this has changed and it’s now used to shut up any women regardless of race, age, profession,

@holdyourheadupyousillygirl

Hear me out

I am, in a white world, the most "minor" of whites i.e. I have very red hair and pale pale skin.

Even among white people, i am the runt. On adoption forms, along with black Africans, is listed redheads as an exclusive category.
Have you ever heard the term "as welcome as a red-haired stepchild"?
KAREN is not race. SHE is not White. SHE is not Blue or purple.

She is a woman - yes a WOMAN - of no distinct colour or age who acts like an entitled human. Who forgets that we strive for equality.

I'm sorry for those who have the name. I'm also sorry for redheads, black people, women ...

If the phrase 'read the room' was a post

[quote Keepitonthedownlow]@theblackdarner, respectfully, I'm still not sure why men using the term Karen as a way to attack all women and force them to shut up is helpful to black women.

Using the term Karen to describe a racist white woman is different and any term that highlights racism is useful.

It was that point of clarification that I was raising.

Since you find my presence on the thread disrespectful I'll bow out and just to point out that I have never commented on anything on Black Mumsnet but obviously it does show on trending - perhaps that should be changed.[/quote]
No it doesn't need to be changed.
It says Black Mumsnetters- even if you see it trending you're under no obligation to open it, and even less so to put your twopennies worth.

I’ve heard karen used multiple times by children, teens and adults.

@NippyWoowoo

Have you ever heard the term "as welcome as a red-haired stepchild"?

No. HTH.

Many sitcoms of the 80a and 90s have used it Don't say HTH unless you know there's an answer. I was writing I support of you.

@Saltyquiche

Karen was originally used to describe an awful racist white woman but this has changed and it’s now used to shut up any women regardless of race, age, profession,

No it's hasn't and it's not.

@MorrisZapp

My name is Karen. If I see it trending I will read and comment, would be pretty odd not to because only people a different colour to me are allowed to discuss the meaning of my actual name.

I've got nothing to add to the Karen debate here, it's all been said. But you don't get to use my name as a sexist insult then bar me from even discussing it.

I'll continue the conversation on parts of the site where everyone can speak.

I had money on you turning up.. Two others to come. You ve plopped on here more than once to tell us what books not to read as I recall.. And fond of using " woke"as an insult on FWR . but that misuse and the offence you cause we Black women.doesn't bother YOU does it?

FWR where older Black women, with English not as their first language, get pulled up on their spelling , grammar, amongst other things. So we try to talk here and here you plop. More arrogance and living up to the stereotype.. How dare you!

I've got nothing to add to the Karen debate here, it's all been said. But you don't get to use my name as a sexist insult then bar me from even discussing it

Nothing to add, yet here you are, interrupting a discussion by Black women. Pretending it's about your name. But you've disrupted a thread on black feminism on here, back in the day. No mention of Karen on that at all.

I've got nothing to add to the Karen debate here, it's all been said. But you don't get to use my name as a sexist insult then bar me from even discussing it

Now I fully understand the term "second-hand embarrassment"

It's a bit shit when your name is actually Karen.

I dont care when they talk about it. I do care when inevitably 5 thread comments in on a post about Womanface, someone says its 'worse than Blackface'. Then most of the thread becomes about that comparison, in throwaway fashion.

They're racist af. That's why they really cant discuss the issue without swiftly moving to gleefully downplaying Blackface.

I can't take them seriously at all so if others dont, I fully understand.

@holdyourheadupyousillygirl

Hear me out

I am, in a white world, the most "minor" of whites i.e. I have very red hair and pale pale skin.

Even among white people, i am the runt. On adoption forms, along with black Africans, is listed redheads as an exclusive category.
Have you ever heard the term "as welcome as a red-haired stepchild"?
KAREN is not race. SHE is not White. SHE is not Blue or purple.

She is a woman - yes a WOMAN - of no distinct colour or age who acts like an entitled human. Who forgets that we strive for equality.

I'm sorry for those who have the name. I'm also sorry for redheads, black people, women ...

Yes remember when red headed people were taken from their homes and sold into slavery en masse? Were legally considered property? Were denied basic human rights until relatively recently?

I don't.

IdontWanna
You've said upthread you are white.
Youve posted 5 times on this thread.
And posting now Karen memes.
It's not helpful. Why? Because it's Black Mumsnet. You are white and posting that shit on here. Not helpful.

I apologise. I'll stop. I thought i was having a conversation with a poster. Fair enough though.

@DeeCeeCherry

I dont care when they talk about it. I do care when inevitably 5 thread comments in on a post about Womanface, someone says its 'worse than Blackface'. Then most of the thread becomes about that comparison, in throwaway fashion.

They're racist af. That's why they really cant discuss the issue without swiftly moving to gleefully downplaying Blackface.

I can't take them seriously at all so if others dont, I fully understand.

I agree.

@babywalker56 this is why I can't take take the Karen objections on board. Until I see people on MN keep that same energy when a thread about a racist incident arises or stop using woke as an insult, I can't see it as anything other than oppression olympics.

That's also the reason I find woman face so bloody offensive. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the people that use that term, only understand blackface on a surface level. Do they know it's darkening your skin to imitate black people? Sure. Have half of them taken the time to research and learn just how insidious blackface was in its inception and exactly how instrumental it has been in the subjugation of black people? Doubtful. Nobody who truly understands black face would co-opt the terminology for their own cause. Nobody with an ounce of decency anyway.

I understood ''Womanface'' to be those men who attempted to look like a woman, and failing.
'Karen' seems to be an insult used a lot in USA, have never heard it used in UK.

Thracians and the Scythians, who were traditionally redheads were enslaved by the Persians. But I don't actually think that was the pp's point.
The only people benefitting from all this division are white supremacist males. Divide et impera.

Wrong. The Persians enslaved them because they were Thracians and Scythians. Not because they were redheads.

Can we now carry on with our own thread? Perhaps start your opressed redhead thread elsewhere? Thanks so much.

*oppressed.
(Just in case Morris Zapp comes back)

[quote WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo]@babywalker56 this is why I can't take take the Karen objections on board. Until I see people on MN keep that same energy when a thread about a racist incident arises or stop using woke as an insult, I can't see it as anything other than oppression olympics.

That's also the reason I find woman face so bloody offensive. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the people that use that term, only understand blackface on a surface level. Do they know it's darkening your skin to imitate black people? Sure. Have half of them taken the time to research and learn just how insidious blackface was in its inception and exactly how instrumental it has been in the subjugation of black people? Doubtful. Nobody who truly understands black face would co-opt the terminology for their own cause. Nobody with an ounce of decency anyway.[/quote]
Thought I'd centre a Black womans remarks seeing as it's BMN.

@TedMullins

Completely agree. The “feminism” on here is so myopic.

Myopically focused on women and girls' needs and experiences.

Outrageous

A few white feminist ploppers.
Myopically centring themselves on a board for Black women.
Unsurprising.