'Woman face' and calming 'Karen' a slur get my back up

[NippyWoowoo]

Am I alone in this? Popular amongst FWR on Mumsnet: talking about what a slur Karen is and stating that drag is offensive as it's 'woman face'.

As a black woman it feels so wrong to me, 'black face' is offensive and harmful, n*er is a slur and harmful. They are both things that have directly been used in the continual dehumanisation and oppression of black people and in perpetuating negative harmful stereotypes that, to this day, negatively affect black people.

Yes women as a sex are oppressed, but it isn't being called 'Karen' that's doing it, nor is is a drag dance-off don't even get me started on the fact that the definition is a Karen is so far removed on here from its actual meaning. WW in this country still have it much easier than ethnic minorities, and quite frankly whenever I see these terms in conversations it makes me realise how far apart our worlds are, and that they have probably never actually experienced discrimination in their life. And no, being called a TERF on Twitter is not comparable either.

[quote WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo]@babywalker56 this is why I can't take take the Karen objections on board. Until I see people on MN keep that same energy when a thread about a racist incident arises or stop using woke as an insult, I can't see it as anything other than oppression olympics.

That's also the reason I find woman face so bloody offensive. I'm willing to bet that 90% of the people that use that term, only understand blackface on a surface level. Do they know it's darkening your skin to imitate black people? Sure. Have half of them taken the time to research and learn just how insidious blackface was in its inception and exactly how instrumental it has been in the subjugation of black people? Doubtful. Nobody who truly understands black face would co-opt the terminology for their own cause. Nobody with an ounce of decency anyway.[/quote]
Just stepping over the ploppers to centre the Black women on the Black womens board.

Wrong. The Persians enslaved them because they were Thracians and Scythians. Not because they were redheads.

No one said it was because of their hair colour.

But women tearing women apart is insane, no woman benefits from this, but men do. I'll leave this now, this isn't the place.

I absolutely agree with you OP. It screams of claiming victim-hood. "Oh, we're so oppressed," with their single-issue "feminism". It's just silencing.
I also saw a post today that claimed "cis" was damaging and offensive to women. Give me strength.

White women landed on here to interrupt a discussion between black women.The discussion was about the use of the word Karen.

No Black womans post on here demanded the right to call white women Karen.

Black women also talked about why they did not feel welcome on FWR.

Then a handful of FWR ploppers, incapable of listening to how the Black women feel about their experiences on FWR, continued to interrupt , misinterpret, derail, and disrupt the thread.

When white women listen, to how Black women feel, and act on it, no matter how uncomfortable that may be. Then that might be progress.

These white woman on here, claiming to be feminists, sneering at us, so keen on defending womens spaces, ( rightly so) but incapable of respecting a Black space.

We see you.

@MoiraQueen

Thracians and the Scythians, who were traditionally redheads were enslaved by the Persians. But I don't actually think that was the pp's point. The only people benefitting from all this division are white supremacist males. Divide et impera.

No one said it was because of their hair colour. Why mention their hair colour unless it was to make the point redheads were slaves aswell? Take your whatabouttery somewhere else.

@MoiraQueen

Wrong. The Persians enslaved them because they were Thracians and Scythians. Not because they were redheads.

No one said it was because of their hair colour.

But women tearing women apart is insane, no woman benefits from this, but men do. I'll leave this now, this isn't the place.

You were literally the one to bring it up, but at the same time you're arguing that it wasn't because of their hair colour. Seems like maybe it was a pointless "point" you were trying to make and it would have been better to leave it unsaid.

If you think you're justified becoming prejudiced against all white women because white women have treated you like crap then I get why. I just don't agree with you.

If that's what you've gotten from this post, please keep scrolling.

I didn’t really realise the extent to which feminism in this country centres White women until I started reading threads on FWR. For that fact alone I’m actually grateful to MN.

I once made the mistake of joining a thread on there about a white woman who sued EasyJet because an air stewardess asked her to move seats so that an Orthodox Jewish man didn’t have to sit next to her. The woman refused to move, as is her right, and the air stewardess asked another passenger instead. The flight continued without incident. Women on the thread were up in arms about the cruel indignity this woman faced and how offensive the request was.

I commented that a White man once refused to sit next to me on a train and called me a fing n** which I thought was more offensive than someone not wanting to sit next to me because of their religion. I made it clear this was my personal opinion and not one I expected all women to agree with.

Oh dear. The backlash from white women on that thread who were outraged at my suggestion that racist abuse was worse than the ‘ordeal’ the white woman on the plane endured was swift. I was called a number of names (‘fucking idiot’), accused of playing oppression olympics and failing to understand sexism and the patriarchy (thank goodness the educated white women on the thread were there to explain it to silly ole me).

It was certainly an eye opener.

If you think you're justified becoming prejudiced against all white women because white women have treated you like crap then I get why. I just don't agree with you.

Where has this been implied on this thread?

Karen actually refers to a particular type of white woman who uses people's race as a weapon against them, e.g. the woman dog walker who threatened the black man with the police, saying she would say a black man was hurting her. It's a particular behaviour, it doesn't refer to any white woman who has an opinion.

To be fair the Karen meme originated here for women who made ridiculous complaints, a year or so following that (maybe more) American social media gave it a different meaning. I agree though, but sadly do you expect any different?

I think a lot forget that we are still women as well, so have to contest with racial and sex discrimination, the latter of which I'll admit I don't have the same energy to fight as I've already been worn down and exhausted by the former.

Evening all - can I just remind people to read the sticky at the top of this board?
This is a space for BMNers and it’s really clumsy and disrespectful to barge in without so much as a cursory read of the whole thread.
Thanks

It's odd. Your posts read as though you think it's only WW complaining about being called TERFs and Karens.

Perhaps you should check out Twitter where one of the best dissections of Karen as an insult was written by a Black female academic. Twitter is also where both slurs are used by white men against women, regardless of their race.

I'm sure there's a name for women who defend male slurs against other women and who tell women to stfu when they stand against slurs. But that's obviously not you OP. You're just confused about how the slurs are being used; who is using them and who they're directed at. No self-respecting feminist would align herself alongside white men using slurs and issuing threats against women. That isn't feminism. No matter how much capitalism and the patriarchy tell you that it is.

The "if you don't do feminism how I do feminism then you're not doing it right" approach is bloody patronising @AnnesBrokenSlate

I completely agree. I think we also all agree that it isn't 'feminism' if it's excusing and enabling white Western males who are slurring and making threats against women.

It's a confused sort of 'feminism' that regularly others Black Women.

Im mindful that this Board was set up due to disgusting racism from White MN members which went as far as doxxing and endangering a Black Woman.

It's something non-Black members who dont and won't 'get it', could take a minute to think about in terms of landing here and expecting we should listen to your lectures.

No chance.

Apply the same energy that you apply to Whitesplaining, to opposing (a)those who casually bandwagon racist tropes ie comparison to Blackface - but don't really care about it unless to play oppression Olympics, and dismiss Black Womens' thoughts on it

& (b) the men you say are 'Karen'ing' you.

Go and heckle them.

The Feminism board was where I saw excuses made for a White Male Australian journo who drew a racist, offensive caricature of Serena Williams. All the usual stereotypes were brought into play to defend a man.

Selective Feminism- No thank you.

@DeeCeeCherry

It's a confused sort of 'feminism' that regularly others Black Women.

Im mindful that this Board was set up due to disgusting racism from White MN members which went as far as doxxing and endangering a Black Woman.

It's something non-Black members who dont and won't 'get it', could take a minute to think about in terms of landing here and expecting we should listen to your lectures.

No chance.

Apply the same energy that you apply to Whitesplaining, to opposing (a)those who casually bandwagon racist tropes ie comparison to Blackface - but don't really care about it unless to play oppression Olympics, and dismiss Black Womens' thoughts on it

& (b) the men you say are 'Karen'ing' you.

Go and heckle them.

The Feminism board was where I saw excuses made for a White Male Australian journo who drew a racist, offensive caricature of Serena Williams. All the usual stereotypes were brought into play to defend a man.

Selective Feminism- No thank you.

Yep, and it's the same defensiveness we always see isn't it, rather than a desire to listen to us we get lectures on how we are wrong. Depressing but not surprising.

Karen is a misogynist slur often used to abuse and close down women (it’s particularly used for middle aged white women). It is a term of bigoted abuse. It may be used for white women in particular but feminism is for all women including white women.

“Woman face” is used to compare dressing up and making fun of women to black face yes. I personally don’t think the discussion or term is offensive. I don’t particularly object to drag but it’s an interesting analysis.

I do agree that the trans issue can overwhelm the feminism board a bit and I would like to see more variety.

I'm not white.
Karen and women face is in no way the same as the n word and blackface.
However they are still offensive, but no where near as the other words.
Context is everything.
Men don't get called comparable words to Karen, or are used as a caricature.
It's not a race to the bottom.

Completely agree OP it’s faux victimhood and not comparable to the N word or black face.
This thread is wild though, some of these replies are rage inducing and highlight exactly why I don’t frequently use MN.

I have pointed it out to those on the 'feminism' board a few times (before I left them to it) and they took great pride/pleasure in telling me tough luck, they enjoy using the word as a slur, each time. They talk about extreme right-wing commentators as allies because they once made an anti-trans comment

This is also my experience. The use of woke to mean TRA is fucking infuriating.