'Woman face' and calming 'Karen' a slur get my back up

[NippyWoowoo]

Am I alone in this? Popular amongst FWR on Mumsnet: talking about what a slur Karen is and stating that drag is offensive as it's 'woman face'.

As a black woman it feels so wrong to me, 'black face' is offensive and harmful, n*er is a slur and harmful. They are both things that have directly been used in the continual dehumanisation and oppression of black people and in perpetuating negative harmful stereotypes that, to this day, negatively affect black people.

Yes women as a sex are oppressed, but it isn't being called 'Karen' that's doing it, nor is is a drag dance-off don't even get me started on the fact that the definition is a Karen is so far removed on here from its actual meaning. WW in this country still have it much easier than ethnic minorities, and quite frankly whenever I see these terms in conversations it makes me realise how far apart our worlds are, and that they have probably never actually experienced discrimination in their life. And no, being called a TERF on Twitter is not comparable either.

@amoosee

I once saw a post on MN that claimed that Karen is just as bad as, if not worse than, the n word.

Here's a hint. If you can type out the word Karen in full but not the n word, they are not the same.

This.

I cannot align myself with feminism in its current iteration. If feminism was truely what it claims to stand for, there would never have been a need for black feminism as a sub category.

Womanism is more my lane.

The terms Karen and Terf are both slurs.
Are they comparable with the N word? No.

I'm not sure why that means that that white women are just supposed to suck it up though? We aren't allowed to reject the use of slurs against our sex/age because they are perceived by you to be less worse than racism?! It's a race to the bottom then isn't it?

Totally agree with you.
Honestly, sometimes 'Karen' is the perfect description for someone. I suspect that those most vocal against its use are probably aware it most likely applies to them!

Thanks for the reminder of the real origins of "woke" and "Karen". I knew about Karen, but not about woke. It's sickening to see how thoroughly both have been distorted, and especially how they've somehow been whitewashed.

I see the outrage over the term Karen perplexing. When George Floyd was murdered, half the work decided that yes racism does in fact exist. Only once everyone was able to physically see the life drain out of a man's body though, nothing to do with what people on the receiving end of racism had been highlighting for years.

So now we have Karen. We've said that the actions of women like Amy Cooper, Miya Ponsetto, Abigail Elphic, etc etc is harmful but time and time again were given reasons as to why that's simply not the case, race isn't a factor etc etc. So then the behaviour is given a label and the label gets more outrage than the behaviour itself. The fact that it's a woman's name is a red herring and so is claiming that it's used to silence women. it's being called out on harmful behaviour that pisses people off, that's why feminism is adding it to its collection of hills to die on.

So, because they're not as offensive as the things you've mentioned (which they're not, I absolutely agree) then we can't be offended by them? And if we are offended by them, we're not proper feminists?

Karen is not a slur. 'Woman face' is not a thing

You are entitled to view those things through your own lense. Fine. I am allowed to feel they are misogynist and hateful, you can't police my feelings on that.

I hope as a black woman I can give a different opinion. I agree that women are marginalised by the use of “Karen” especially in the UK where it can be used to just put down any woman usually of middle age and above. The original examples in the US made me feel vindication and relief that there was a name for people who do this but over time it seems women are judged the most and I don’t like it. To think it compares to a racial slur is laughable but I don’t want a race to the bottom.

As for woman face, I agree. I hate how feminist is mocked.

I hate how even in my own community so many women are expected to do everything but I suffer from both racism and sexism but honestly for me the sexism has been just as bad. I think the feminists on MN have a point and I am thankful to have learnt so much here. On the other hand most WW will never know what it is like to be a woman and a minority.

@GrapesThatThrive

Karen is not a slur. 'Woman face' is not a thing

You are entitled to view those things through your own lense. Fine. I am allowed to feel they are misogynist and hateful, you can't police my feelings on that.

Same here and as a black woman I don’t feel the same.

This is why intersectionalism is parodied as turning into oppression olympics.

The term Karen, when used devoid of its original context to shut up any woman who has an opinion, hurts all women. That's why there are also references to 'Black Karen's' as well . It's a misogynist's dream.

Is it not possible for Black women to have a discussion on BMN without the I'm white. ploppers falling into the trope being debated? Goodness knows you have a thread on this every other day on the main Board.. Leave us alone to discuss it on our own Board. You think a bunch of I'm white... opinions is going to magically sway our opinion on this Board?

So back off with the hectoring and lectures non Black people, and stop invading a safe Black space because you don't like the discussion and want to control it. Stop trying to impose your white perspective on us.

PersonalIy, ( to Black posters) I detest the use of the word "Karen".

Why? Because firstly Black women of a certain age have that name too. Secondly, a mouthy opinionated ass hole who hates black people usually has a different name. Thirdly, you can't fight racism using a misogynist term. Don't use another ism against racism.

Amy Cooper is not called Karen. Abigail Elphick is not called Karen. Use their real names if you are able.

But you know what? This thread is going to fill up with the Amy Cooper and Abigail Elphick types. Which is how I refer to them. All squatting on here to hector the Black women. Because we are not allowed to think for ourselves by certain non black women. Who love to invade to Tell Us How Wrong We Are Because I'm a White Woman Squatting in a Black Safe Space To Tell You What To Think.

So yes, there is a certain type of privileged white woman who centres herself and is not an ally of Black women. To misquote Muhammed Ali, no one called Karen ever called me the N word. What about the real Karen who spoke up for the likes of Nicole and Bibaa? Why do I need to misuse her name to describe a different group of women entirely?

Using a name, which all colours of women share, to describe a certain group of racist white women (of many names,) does not describe sufficiently how obnoxious the Cooper and Elphick types of this world are.

Racist white women.. Let's be clear who they are, without the misogyny.

But it's usually men (usually white) using Karen incorrectly ie. Not when it's a white women using her privilege against a POC.
Who is really wrong, the white man calling a woman Karen as an ageist, sexist insult because she has annoyed him or the woman complaining about it?
I think you are misdirecting your irritation, it should be at those using the insult wrongly.

@WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo

I cannot align myself with feminism in its current iteration. If feminism was truely what it claims to stand for, there would never have been a need for black feminism as a sub category.

Womanism is more my lane.

Black feminism is not a sub category. RIP bell hooks

@oliviastwisted

You’ve posted in Black MN so I’m not sure if you want a response from a middle aged white woman.

I totally agree neither womanface nor Karen compare to black face or the N word. There are significant orders of magnitude in the difference because of the structural inequality faced by people of colour that just doest’t exist for white people.

However I do think that drag and Karen are offensive but on a completely different level on a universal offensive scale.

Seeing as you've completely ignored the explanation of the term Karen and still find it offensive then no we don't want your response.

@WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo

I cannot align myself with feminism in its current iteration. If feminism was truely what it claims to stand for, there would never have been a need for black feminism as a sub category.

Womanism is more my lane.

I've never heard of 'womanism' and have just googled. Thank you for this, I will be doing some more reading!

I'm also here because the thread has made it's way onto the "active" board, and thanks @NippyWoowoo and other contributors for the lesson, I didn't know the origins of Karen and it makes more sense now.

@EarringsandLipstick

they will only have themselves to blame - Karens Karrening.

It's nearly unbelievable that a woman would write this about other women

Women are 💯 entitled to object to the use of a woman's name being used as shorthand for a type of poor behaviour.

I'm going to assume you're white? You are exactly the kind of person this thread is about. You've barrelled in here to complain, something you have no business doing. You know when women on here complain about men encroaching their safe spaces; this is what you are doing- buzz off.

@HamCob

The terms Karen and Terf are both slurs. Are they comparable with the N word? No.

I'm not sure why that means that that white women are just supposed to suck it up though? We aren't allowed to reject the use of slurs against our sex/age because they are perceived by you to be less worse than racism?! It's a race to the bottom then isn't it?

My issue is that they are, in fact, used as though they are the same on the FWR board. I've already stated this.

@TheBlackDarner not in my mind no but some feminists appear to have a very different opinion!

This is Black Mumsnet
For goodness sake!
This thread is for Black women to share opinions.
Stop the squatting with I'm white

Incidentally, I find the term "Woman Face" offensive

@TheBlackDarner it says clearly that 'This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful'.

I don't see where anyone has been disrespectful.

I’m not black, I’m brown. And I hate the way MNers get so upset about Karen. I’ve tried so many times to educate when I see the uproar but I’m always shut down because white people cannot handle anything that calls out racism. They have literally appropriated a term used to describe racist while women, and turned it into a sexist word just so they don’t have to face the reality of racism by white women.

Because hey, sexism is definitely not ok, but racism doesn’t exist.

@TheBlackDarner

Is it not possible for Black women to have a discussion on BMN without the I'm white. ploppers falling into the trope being debated? Goodness knows you have a thread on this every other day on the main Board.. Leave us alone to discuss it on our own Board. You think a bunch of I'm white... opinions is going to magically sway our opinion on this Board?

So back off with the hectoring and lectures non Black people, and stop invading a safe Black space because you don't like the discussion and want to control it. Stop trying to impose your white perspective on us.

PersonalIy, ( to Black posters) I detest the use of the word "Karen".

Why? Because firstly Black women of a certain age have that name too. Secondly, a mouthy opinionated ass hole who hates black people usually has a different name. Thirdly, you can't fight racism using a misogynist term. Don't use another ism against racism.

Amy Cooper is not called Karen. Abigail Elphick is not called Karen. Use their real names if you are able.

But you know what? This thread is going to fill up with the Amy Cooper and Abigail Elphick types. Which is how I refer to them. All squatting on here to hector the Black women. Because we are not allowed to think for ourselves by certain non black women. Who love to invade to Tell Us How Wrong We Are Because I'm a White Woman Squatting in a Black Safe Space To Tell You What To Think.

So yes, there is a certain type of privileged white woman who centres herself and is not an ally of Black women. To misquote Muhammed Ali, no one called Karen ever called me the N word. What about the real Karen who spoke up for the likes of Nicole and Bibaa? Why do I need to misuse her name to describe a different group of women entirely?

Using a name, which all colours of women share, to describe a certain group of racist white women (of many names,) does not describe sufficiently how obnoxious the Cooper and Elphick types of this world are.

Racist white women.. Let's be clear who they are, without the misogyny.

Thank you for your perspective.