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Black Mumsnetters

This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.

I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman - am I alone?

578 replies

FTMF30 · 14/03/2021 20:27

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

  • The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time Hmm) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.
  • comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).
  • the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

  • comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.
  • comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Zoorhik · 15/03/2021 12:43

@Shimmyshimmycocobop

I am a feminist and white, I have also been uncomfortable with the fact that so much attention has been paid to the death of a white woman in comparison to, say, the deaths of Nicole Smallman and Bibaa Henry last year. I include myself in this as I think deep down I probably more easily identify with a blonde, middle class woman and think "there but for the grace of god etc." I also think this has come on the back of hearing so much about the increase in domestic violence in lockdown that women have reached tipping point but I totally agree with your post. I know in my own heart I am for all women everywhere but realise that white feminism may be alienating to black women for all the reasons you stated.
I am thinking exactly the same. Where were all the protests regarding the deaths of Nicole Smallman and Bibaa Henry?
Zoorhik · 15/03/2021 12:46

@DeeCeeCherry

You're not alone. There's a thread at the moment with a horrid title but, (mostly but not all) sensitive discussion.

I think it's a Mumsnet Miracle.

Although I have engaged - I wouldn't have if it was on the Feminism Board.

Yes specifically talking about MN I have seen -

Numerous 'Is this racist/Is this cultural appropriation/My Nan has/gave me a Golliwog it's just a toy isn't it? racist goady posts. With responses from Black Women mocked.

Piers Morgan supported in publicly goading, cyber-harassing a Woman for years - abhorrent behaviour that wouldn't acceptable if his victim had been White. Or if a husband brother son etc had behaved like that; but because his victim wasn't the 'right type' of Woman, he was supported and she was character assasinated. They sided with a man bullying a woman.

Serena Williams when she clashed with an Umpire, and subsequently an Australian journo drew an ugly derogatory caricature of her - the Feminism Board was disgusting. The stereotypical Sapphire trope of the loud, aggressive Black woman who doesn't know her 'place' was fully enforced. All because Serena Williiams dared to speak up for herself, they sided with a man.

Black Mumsnetters Board - set up after disgusting racism towards poster named patricksrum.

Many more examples.

But racism and the patriarchy has ever been underpinned by Women.

Can you imagine if Meghan had gone to Clapham Common yesterday? She wouldn't have been praised, as Kate was. She'd be deemed publicity seeking, arrogant, fake, and a whole lot more. As a mixed race Woman, it's the Black part of her that triggers hate.

I can't take Feminism seriously here because it excludes Black Women.

& It seems on MN some people can't accept not all comment on just one board, or one subject. 'For' Women's rights but not Black Women is definitely a thing.

Agree with you whole heartedly.
DeeCeeCherry · 15/03/2021 12:47

Benelovencd
Also I am yet to meet a BW who says the experience of being a woman is worse than that of being Black and hence they identify with feminism more

Likewise I have never actually met a Black Woman who has expressed feeling like that.

The intersectionality of racism and sexism/misogyny/misogynoir impacts us as a triple whammy, and it's deadly.

We can't seperate being a Woman from being Black. Ever. Discussions with friends and family, my own aged 20+ daughters, women's groups haven't ever touched on that.

So I'm surprised to hear this today

HmmmmmmInteresting · 15/03/2021 12:56

So a bunch of white women are offended because I spoke out about the racism I experienced on the 'feminism' board and my posts got pulled. Sounds about right.

JillianABlackMNer · 15/03/2021 12:56

@WobbliHead3000

Comments like this have been typed out in many forms over the past weekend. It’s tiring.
I've just read your post again and I think I see where you're coming from. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think that poster is doing what you think they're doing. I've seen them around and they always (iirc) speak up for black people - I don't know if they're black or not.

I see that post as a sarcastic one to people who're enraged (rightly so) about Sarah's death but never on behalf of black women; it's to those who can't seem to realise this has been happening to black people but as many white feminists will speak up (more) only if it affects them, police brutality is now being hammered upon. Also, since society is geared towards white people (including white women) a change may happen faster because white women are heading this one.

That's how I read it.

DeeCeeCherry · 15/03/2021 13:06

HmmmmmmInteresting
So a bunch of white women are offended because I spoke out about the racism I experienced on the 'feminism' board and my posts got pulled. Sounds about right

Yep.

& those who reported wouldn't see that form of silencing a Black Woman about her own lived experiences, their need to have racism and microaggressions discussed only in the way that they prescribe, within a space for Black women, as problematic at all.

Racism and intersectionality aren't pretty subjects. Sometimes truths around them are uncomfortable. But we're all grown and should be able to take it.

This is a decent enough discussion, I'm finding.

But as you know unfortunately, a few distractors and derailers tend to hang around

Heiferr · 15/03/2021 13:15

We can't seperate being a Woman from being Black. Ever. Discussions with friends and family, my own aged 20+ daughters, women's groups haven't ever touched on that.

@DeeCeeCherry I tried to explain this on the Feminism boards once. Got completely shouted down, nobody was even willing to discuss where exactly I was coming from. It didn't fit with the status quo so the conversation was not going to be had. I haven't bothered since.

ShutUpAlex · 15/03/2021 13:23

The feminism board on this website is disgusting and an embarrassment to feminism.

They once turned on me and said they didn’t believe me when I opened up about my rape because I didn’t fit their victim script that they love to abide by. It was generally horrifying the abuse I got on that board because of it.

Benelovencd · 15/03/2021 13:24

That's really disturbing that MN continually let's goady posters and their comments stay up but censors BW speaking of their lived experiences - all on BMN. I expect nothing less

Benelovencd · 15/03/2021 13:26

@Quaagars

Not heard born free before, sobering term. As you say, it's still so recent and for people to pretend otherwise or minimise is sadly far too common. I'm white, and can see this, hopefully others can too.
Thank you @Quaagars

This is the only acknowledgement I have ever got to sharing how sad it is that people that young are the first generation to be free- and noone burst into flames spontaneously either. I am sure it will be the only one as well.

MoiJeJous · 15/03/2021 13:31

I agree with everything you said OP.

DeeCeeCherry · 15/03/2021 13:40

Heiferr
We can't seperate being a Woman from being Black. Ever. Discussions with friends and family, my own aged 20+ daughters, women's groups haven't ever touched on that

@DeeCeeCherry I tried to explain this on the Feminism boards once. Got completely shouted down, nobody was even willing to discuss where exactly I was coming from. It didn't fit with the status quo so the conversation was not going to be had. I haven't bothered since

Yes. So tone-deaf.

DeeCeeCherry · 15/03/2021 13:50

As for the whole thing about comparing drag queens to blackface

Drag Queens - Men
Blackface performers - Men

Both when they're not doing their job and not in costume, move through society with the armour of male privilege.

Blackface mocked Black people heavily oppressed by enslavement, Jim Crow, KKK, segregation, lack of civil rights, rape of Black women by White men who weren't ever convicted, racist murders, the burning down of homes and businesses, negative media. & so much more.

If it can't even be seen that such comparison is ludicrous then at this point it's a case of being deliberately obtuse

FTMF30 · 15/03/2021 14:50

Thanks for all the responses and discussion. It's very encouraging to hear what some of you have to say but, as always, quite draining to hear from those who have inserted themselves in the conversation to belittle how and minimise how I, and others, feel.

The fact that someone upthread has said I feel detached from feminism because feminists merely have a difference in opinion is such a ridiculous statement to make. I feel detached because feminism (how it is acted out in reality) is not for me. The values on which feminism is truly built upon excludes my blackness. It goes beyond a difference in opinion.

How disrespectful is it that a black poster on here has shared her experience of rejection and hostility when posting on the feminism board, only for (I assume) non-black posters to hone in on the exact words she said to question whether it happened. I got the obvious impression, that wasn't the exact language used, but more the general vibe and feeling she was met with (that was pretty clear to me). Still, even if it was a direct quote, it's not unfathomable. I've spotted many disgusting comments that soon come up with a message that the comment has been deleted as it goes against talk guidelines. I have seen direct name calling before a deletion occurs. Why, in particular, on the BMN space where we are discussing detachment from feminism did other women feel the need to pipe up and insinuate it didn't happen?

I wholeheartedly agree that the experience of being a woman is not worse than that of being black. I feel much more rejected by society as a black person than I do a woman. It's just that being a black and a woman makes it that much harder.

OP posts:
Hufflepuffmamma · 15/03/2021 15:26

Just to say I stand with you on your points @FTMF30

JillianABlackMNer · 15/03/2021 15:27

I've also noticed in media (Just started a film that's yet again reminded me of this in the first scene) that women empowerment has to be a white woman who'll represent women. If a white woman/women is/are at the top, then yes "we" have got women there. Job done. If a black woman is at the top, she has to be paired with a white woman either as co-boss or more senior.

CaramelWaferAndTea · 15/03/2021 15:38

I am white so I hope you don’t mind me commenting. I agree with everything you’ve said, OP.

I feel my eyes have been opened to racism which I didn’t understand or see (and probably still don’t) during the pandemic, with the treatment of Meghan and especially, especially with the events of the last few days.

I am a similar age, background and educational experience to Sarah Everard. I feel terrified and in some sense that my experience of male misbehaviour is validated by the events of the last week. But it has also underlined to me the differential value applied to white middle-class life, and I am ashamed of that on behalf of the society I live in.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 15/03/2021 15:50

How disrespectful is it that a black poster on here has shared her experience of rejection and hostility when posting on the feminism board, only for (I assume) non-black posters to hone in on the exact words she said to question whether it happened. I got the obvious impression, that wasn't the exact language used, but more the general vibe and feeling she was met with (that was pretty clear to me). Still, even if it was a direct quote, it's not unfathomable. I've spotted many disgusting comments that soon come up with a message that the comment has been deleted as it goes against talk guidelines. I have seen direct name calling before a deletion occurs. Why, in particular, on the BMN space where we are discussing detachment from feminism did other women feel the need to pipe up and insinuate it didn't happen?

Very true. It was obvious from my post that I wasn't saying those exact words were used but that they might as well have used them from the way they basically insulted me and and made it clear I wasn't welcome. I had asked a question about feminism and race so the abuse was in direct relation to that, hence racial abuse.

ShesMadeATwatOfMePam · 15/03/2021 15:51

It's gross that so many white women appear on this board to comment and question black women all the damn time.

C130 · 15/03/2021 15:59

Thank you for this thread Op. I agree with so much that you, and other posters have written. Some really important conversations are being discussed here.

FullofCurryandparatha · 15/03/2021 16:00

It was obvious from my post that I wasn't saying those exact words were used but that they might as well have used them from the way they basically insulted me and and made it clear I wasn't welcome

So you kinda made out they said things that they didn't say, and you "felt rejected".

HmmmmmmInteresting · 15/03/2021 16:05

@FullofCurryandparatha

It was obvious from my post that I wasn't saying those exact words were used but that they might as well have used them from the way they basically insulted me and and made it clear I wasn't welcome

So you kinda made out they said things that they didn't say, and you "felt rejected".

No I did not. Stop being so willfully ignorant.
HmmmmmmInteresting · 15/03/2021 16:08

@FullofCurryandparatha

It was obvious from my post that I wasn't saying those exact words were used but that they might as well have used them from the way they basically insulted me and and made it clear I wasn't welcome

So you kinda made out they said things that they didn't say, and you "felt rejected".

You guys know you can't use the N word any more so you are more sneaky with your racism
FTMF30 · 15/03/2021 16:31

@FullofCurryandparatha

It was obvious from my post that I wasn't saying those exact words were used but that they might as well have used them from the way they basically insulted me and and made it clear I wasn't welcome

So you kinda made out they said things that they didn't say, and you "felt rejected".

If it weren't for the fact that someone had reported the comment, resulting in its deletion, I would have referenced @HmmmmmmInteresting words vertbatim, but it was so it has been. Instead, I'll go with my recollection.

@HmmmmmmInteresting went on the feminism board saying "hey sisters" and the response was "racist expletive" (not putting the exact words I recall to prevent this getting deleted).

The fact that she opened with "hey sisters" heavily implied to me that that was the vibe she entered the forum with, not her actual words. In turn, the response she described was the vibe, not the exact words.

Again, if the post wasn't deleted I would have looked at the nuances in her use of language and words to back this up. But this is all very familiar really - having history deleted and then rewritten.

OP posts:
PomegranateQueen · 15/03/2021 16:37

ShesMadeATwatOfMePam

Tbh statements such as white women didn't give a shit about being treated like subordinates are pretty shitty and are going to bring out white women who have an opposite view, this is a public forum.

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