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Black Mumsnetters

This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.

I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman - am I alone?

578 replies

FTMF30 · 14/03/2021 20:27

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

  • The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time Hmm) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.
  • comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).
  • the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

  • comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.
  • comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

OP posts:
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RedMarauder · 15/03/2021 16:40

@HmmmmmmInteresting

So a bunch of white women are offended because I spoke out about the racism I experienced on the 'feminism' board and my posts got pulled. Sounds about right.
That's why I write on threads please don't post about other threads.

Those women police us over here and try to get threads here pulled.

This is also why they butt in unwanted on this thread and other threads posted on BMN.

They use the excuse that a thread appears in the "active threads" page and pretend they don't notice it is in the BMN part yet their posts show they are not illiterate.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 15/03/2021 16:40

I'm laughing at the thought of me using the actual words 'heyyy sisters' on the 'feminism' board.🤣 You are correct FTMF30.

My actual words I think were "I went in all 'heyyy sisters' and the response was basically...."

I hate the way MN is so quick to delete things. In this case it was ridiculous. 'Feminists' running to the teacher to tell on me because their feelings were hurt because I called them out on their behaviour.

ZaZathecat · 15/03/2021 16:45

I am a white woman and I agree with every point you made.

Quaagars · 15/03/2021 16:50

Even if some do hold an opposite view to people discussing racism and their experiences of being black, you'd think they'd keep it to themselves instead of minimising/denying it happened, or taking it personally when people talk about it.
As it's not really the place.

Quaagars · 15/03/2021 16:51

That was in response to pomegranate BTW.

DeeCeeCherry · 15/03/2021 16:55

RedMarauder
That's why I write on threads please don't post about other threads

Those women police us over here and try to get threads here pulled

This is also why they butt in unwanted on this thread and other threads posted on BMN

They use the excuse that a thread appears in the "active threads" page and pretend they don't notice it is in the BMN part yet their posts show they are not illiterate

This^

I won't engage with anyone like that, they've nothing to say that I care about.

How laughably ironic - shut down Black Women's voices, monitor how we think feel speak about our own lived experiences of racism🙄

On the other hand in the last couple of days the big debates are about Women's rights and the right of Women to be heard and why won't they listen to women...

There's much I could add to this aspect but it speaks for itself and I can't be asked as really, it deserves zero energy.

Heiferr · 15/03/2021 17:22

A couple of posters have asked about what can be done moving forward, I'm interested to know what thoughts are on this from both BW and WW. Is it possible to repair what is a clearly a very real rift?

HmmmmmmInteresting · 15/03/2021 17:34

I used to think I was a 'feminist'. I used to start threads on the use of Mrs/Ms/Mr etc. Now I honestly don't give a crap about that stuff. I've got bigger fish to fry.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 15/03/2021 17:35

Noted @RedMarauder
That is really weird and creepy behaviour, though. Ewwww.

RedMarauder · 15/03/2021 18:22

@HmmmmmmInteresting you are a feminist just not the type of feminist that is welcome on MN.

The term "Misogynoir" was coined by a black feminist. cssh.northeastern.edu/faculty/moya-bailey/

RedMarauder · 15/03/2021 18:27

@HmmmmmmInteresting

This feminist may also interest you - www.law.columbia.edu/faculty/kimberle-w-crenshaw

nettie434 · 15/03/2021 18:47

They use the excuse that a thread appears in the "active threads" page and pretend they don't notice it is in the BMN part yet their posts show they are not illiterate.

Apologies RedMarauder. I was one of the people who posted on here via the active thread, not noticing which board it came from.

I saw your posts before they got deleted HmmmmmmInteresting. I liked the way they were written and also agreed with what you said.

I won't post again but thanks for this discussion. I'm glad I have read the thread and I feel really ashamed that there are other white women who have disparaged posters' experiences and been so combative.

DirtyHydrogen · 15/03/2021 19:14

[quote RedMarauder]@HmmmmmmInteresting you are a feminist just not the type of feminist that is welcome on MN.

The term "Misogynoir" was coined by a black feminist. cssh.northeastern.edu/faculty/moya-bailey/[/quote]
Totally agree with this.

I'm proudly a feminist (and share lots of the concern around single sex facilities) but as a Black Woman I feel completely alienated from the MN feminist boards. The competitive anti-wokeness and the zeal with which many of them embrace anyone right wing incl. far right who agrees with them on trans issues has really shocked me. This is not about women building a broad church or listening to new perspectives because the regular silencing and dismissal of Black Women offering a different perspective continues unchallenged.

I am so grateful to Patricksrum for this board even with the squatters as it really is the only space where these conversations can take place.

BelleSausage · 15/03/2021 19:19

There are lots of black women involved in feminism in the U.K.

Nimco Ali
Hibo Wardere

Both of whom campaign against FGM and experience some horrific abuse from trans pressure groups.

Or are they not the right kind of black women?

Feminism is not a monolith. If you don’t agree with some groups of feminists then don’t support them. But let’s not pretend that there aren’t thousands of women al over the world campaigning for women’s rights. It is not a white woman thing.

The fact that the U.K. press has an obsession with using pictures attractive white women for headlines does not mean that U.K. feminism is racists.

gottakeeponmovin · 15/03/2021 19:23

Hello - I think you make some good points :
I don't like MM - not because of her race but because I think she is disingenuous
You make some good points on the murder of black women by strangers to which I agree. That said I think the murder of Sarah has elevated public interest which is important foe women of all races.
Minority groups do need places to talk and I think it's fair to have a Black mumsnetters group. I will say though - some black mumsnetters reply to comments with things like - we couldn't care less about your opinion because you are white. I think that's pretty shitty tbh

Heiferr · 15/03/2021 19:53

@BelleSausage

There are lots of black women involved in feminism in the U.K.

Nimco Ali
Hibo Wardere

Both of whom campaign against FGM and experience some horrific abuse from trans pressure groups.

Or are they not the right kind of black women?

Feminism is not a monolith. If you don’t agree with some groups of feminists then don’t support them. But let’s not pretend that there aren’t thousands of women al over the world campaigning for women’s rights. It is not a white woman thing.

The fact that the U.K. press has an obsession with using pictures attractive white women for headlines does not mean that U.K. feminism is racists.

I'm genuinely interested in why you would come here just to tell us we are wrong?

We are well aware that they're are women all over the globe fighting for women's rights. Most of us have family and heritage in countries outside of the UK and know all too well how much work women are doing. It's worth noting that a lot of that work is culturally contextual such as the FGM you have

mentioned.

Speaking for myself, western feminism does not serve women that look like me, assuming that I have to make that very clear distinction so as not to offend others that have chosen to tell us we are wrong.

Some discussions in life are opinion based. Wading in to a space where people have explained themselves multiple times? Not so much.

Heiferr · 15/03/2021 19:56

So much of this commentary is reductive and patronising. As if we've somehow missed the mark of what feminism is and need it broken down for us. I'm not asking for permission for how I've been made to feel. I don't need every single feminist be they black or white to co-sign it in order for it to be true.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 15/03/2021 19:57

Thanks @nettie434, I appreciate that!

BelleSausage · 15/03/2021 20:25

@Heiferr

I came here because I have spent most of my career working with black and Asian girls and feminist charities run by utterly awesome black and Asian women. And I don’t want their work in voices to be forgotten in the rush to label ‘western feminism’ racist.

Feminism is a broad church. To write off all western feminism as inherently racist wipe out all the work done in the U.K. by feminist groups- including those run by black and Asian women who practise what you would term ‘western feminism’, quite often in circumstance that are quite personally dangerous for them.

I get that the MN board aren’t everyone’s cup of tea. I don’t really use them. But to make sweeping statements that feminism is only for white women and ‘western feminism (whatever that is) is only for white women is really insulting to those women who fight to keep services alive for women all over the country.

MolyHolyGuacamole · 15/03/2021 20:29

@HmmmmmmInteresting

I've not read any of the comments to your post. I used to consider myself a feminist, but after reading the 'feminism' board on MN I no longer do Fuck that shit.
@HmmmmmmInteresting oh please don't! I consider myself a feminist as well and felt the same on those boards. But I just think that they're extreme, and out of touch with the feminism that I know. MN is the only place I see this type of 'feminism', the world is normal on other social media sites (namely Facebook). They're the ones who've got it wrong
Quarks69 · 15/03/2021 20:31

@DeeCeeCherry thanks for taking time to respond back there. I can guess you are sick of explaining the same thing over again and I know that books are written By people who aren’t going to bother anymore! But it is so much more Interesting hearing arguments from women who have honed the crux of the issues down to a clear explanation.

When you live in London it is easy to forget that big chunks of the Uk are 99% white and women don’t have cause to think about life from a black perspective. It would be sad if that segregation continued online, but I can see that it inevitably does!!

BelleSausage · 15/03/2021 20:37

@Heiferr

I would also like to point out that my feminism comes from being harassed and sexually assaulted by men numerous times in my life. Something which is a sadly universal female experience. I support all women who suffer from male violence, rape or harassment. No matter their background.

MolyHolyGuacamole · 15/03/2021 20:40

For anyone not understanding why many black women do not feel included in feminism, please have a look at this informative video that breaks it down:

Iveputmyselfonthenaughtystep · 15/03/2021 20:48

I was horrified to read about the bornfree generation. I honestly hadn't computed that systemic colonialism had been affecting people as recently as that. It is only lately that I've started trying to look around more, as I come out of the fug of the baby years and notice what a shitshow the world is. It is sobering and uncomfortable to realise that I am not as unbiased and egalitarian as I thought I was/want to be/hope I will be.
Birth rights are a joke anyway and I was very aware of the high incidence of maternal death amongst black mothers. It is something I continue to be horrified by, to be twice vulnerable like that seems to exemplify intersectional disadvantage. Hats off to those black women who have spoken about it. I remember being particularly moved by an interview I heard on woman's hour. It is so hard to shout out for yourself when you're vulnerable and broken after giving birth, not to mention the whole - keeping a small person alive thing.

Keep shouting out. Some (at least) white feminists can hear you, support you and are trying to do better x

ImpatiensI · 15/03/2021 20:58

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Can you actually back any of this up?

The issues you go on to use as examples are nothing to do with Feminism supposedly being 'problematic'.