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Black Mumsnetters

This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.

I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman - am I alone?

578 replies

FTMF30 · 14/03/2021 20:27

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

  • The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time Hmm) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.
  • comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).
  • the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

  • comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.
  • comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

OP posts:
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Benelovencd · 14/03/2021 23:31

I think feminists need to stick together, because we have a hell of a lot of disadvantage to address.

No. Sticking together often means Black women having to choose between their race or their sex because feminism is exclusionary and lacks intersectionality.

It means when Black women raise their issues they are told to focus on the bigger issue for now. I will always encourage Black women to divest and put themselves first for once. We are used constantly to prop up and fight for others. It is time Black women put themselves first and I'm glad more and more BW are realising this and divesting, and dealing with the misogynoir that faces us directly.

Feminism is not for us. It is for the right kind of women. Feminism never stands with BW, it airbrushes us out and does not recognise us as human when we need help.

If feminism in the UK was really for all women why do we only hear BW talking about

  • the high mortality of BW in pregnancy and childbirth
  • the adultification of black girls
  • the disenfranchisement of British children through the immigration system and exclusionary restrictions on state support on derivative rights holders who are 9/10 times Black or Asian and women, down to banning mothers of British children claiming £20 child benefit hindering their ability to work and guaranteeing British children growing up in poverty

Just a glimpse into 3 issues facing Black women that you will never hear from the feminists.

We have to put ourselves first and fight for our own women's rights because feminism doesn't recognise Black women as women. So I won't ask Black women to stand in solidarity and keep on keeping quiet while issues like this plague our communities and worsen socio-economic outcomes.

WhoStoleMyCheese · 14/03/2021 23:31

@Benelovencd and those who are neither black, nor brown, nor anything get trashed by everybody. Brown/caramel people think I'm too black and black people think I'm not black enough. Result : am a raceless void
Apologies I didn't realise this was the black mumsnetters forum - I'll remove myself from here. Also don't want to derail thread, sorry

FTMF30 · 14/03/2021 23:34

@Ikeameatballs Because of the historical context and the sheer scale of how black people have been mistreated (genocide, slavery, etc). Whilst slavery was still very much alive (as if that in itself wasn't atrocious enough) you had white people mocking us and reinforcing awful stereotypes that dehumanized us. Whilst we were treated like absolute shit, everyone was laughing at us too. There is not that parallel with drag.

Also, a prime audience for drag seems to be straight women, although personally I find drag to be a joke I just don't find funny. Many people who work behind the scenes on the shows are also straight woman. Again, there is no parallel with blackface. In it's infancy, black people had no power at all. We weren't sharing a joke, we were being laughed at.

Women, historically have been treated awfully (and still are in some contexts) but my view is that it doesn't compare, as a whole, to how black people have suffered. So for me, blackface hurts a lot more. I don't feel drag was born out of a deep hatred for women. It's not funny or entertaining to me, but it's not really offensive either.

I don't think I've articulated the thoughts in my head very well but hopefully you get the gist.

OP posts:
HmmmmmmInteresting · 14/03/2021 23:37

I've not read any of the comments to your post. I used to consider myself a feminist, but after reading the 'feminism' board on MN I no longer do Fuck that shit.

FTMF30 · 14/03/2021 23:43

[quote BeckyWithTheGoodHair5629456]@FTMF30 it's more the other way around - if you support women's rights then you are by default a feminist - because that is literally the meaning of the word feminist.
I do think your points are absolutely valid though, I am white, and a feminist - supporting ALL women's rights - and I have never considered that viewpoint before, but I absolutely will now. Thank you. [/quote]
That's the thing though - that's what feminism is presented as meaning but it really doesn't. From my perspective, feminism = white women's rights.

OP posts:
FTMF30 · 14/03/2021 23:48

Thanks for everyone's comments. I'm glad I'm not alone in feeling like this. I feel a weight has been lifted just by admitting how I feel.

On the one hand, I felt a bit of a traitor to womanhood by wanting to disassociate with feminism, but the feeling of being pushed aside, ignored and unheard whilst still being expected to support the "bigger picture" has just become too much.

OP posts:
HmmmmmmInteresting · 14/03/2021 23:50

The MN Feminism board is 'feminists' playing at feminism but asking the patriarchy for permission.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 14/03/2021 23:53

I've had loads of racist abuse from the 'feminists' on Mumsnet. So in answer to your OP, the 'feminism' on Mumsnet is not for the likes of you.

Benelovencd · 15/03/2021 00:02

On the one hand, I felt a bit of a traitor to womanhood by wanting to disassociate with feminism, but the feeling of being pushed aside, ignored and unheard whilst still being expected to support the "bigger picture" has just become too much.

I can't be focused on drag (whether or not the harm exists) when BW are 4 times more likely to die in childbirth and the medical community is celebrating that as an improvement from fivefold, and noone is talking about it, or bringing that to the forefront, but issues like the former garner support and are mainstream, while the literal lives of BW remain on the fringe.

The father of modern day gynaecology who made all these advances through shocking experiments and procedures on BW with no pain relief but still medicine does not educate doctors on how conditions manifest in Black skin and bodies despite having being developed from such a large dataset of BW. Or how a BW women's cancer cells have allowed for all these advances in cancer treatment but Black people still have worse outcomes. So for my own MH and sanity, I can't ve part of movement that doesn't recognise or see these things as wrong and fight for them to be corrected.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 15/03/2021 00:07

Just take a look at the 'feminism' board. They use 'woke' as an insult and love people that are pro-Trump. They're trying to ingratiate themselves with the Trumpers to make themselves relevant. It's pathetic. No self respecting woman would get on board with that.

Also they're obsessed with trans people.

WhiteSquare · 15/03/2021 00:10

I agree Op, I am not a feminist. Never have been, how can you say your a feminist when you do not support all women. Women who claim to be feminists Rip other women to pieces on a daily basis.

The system is set up for white people to succeed, therefore everything in the system will give white people/women have an advantage, therefore giving black people/women a disadvantage.

There are so many news stories about missing/murdered white women, but next to none missing/murder black women that have gained as much attention.

As for MM, I don’t like her nor dislike her. But what does that matter. The thing that sticks out to me the most is, the comment regarding racism in the palace. Harry reported this to Meghan, it was Harry’s observation. Meghan was simply repeating what he told her however she’s took the brunt of the criticism.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 15/03/2021 00:15

@WhiteSquare

I agree Op, I am not a feminist. Never have been, how can you say your a feminist when you do not support all women. Women who claim to be feminists Rip other women to pieces on a daily basis.

The system is set up for white people to succeed, therefore everything in the system will give white people/women have an advantage, therefore giving black people/women a disadvantage.

There are so many news stories about missing/murdered white women, but next to none missing/murder black women that have gained as much attention.

As for MM, I don’t like her nor dislike her. But what does that matter. The thing that sticks out to me the most is, the comment regarding racism in the palace. Harry reported this to Meghan, it was Harry’s observation. Meghan was simply repeating what he told her however she’s took the brunt of the criticism.

I no longer go on the ', feminism' board but I'm willing to bet my mortgage that they hate Meghan.

Don't @ me because I'm really not interested.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 15/03/2021 00:22

@Benelovencd

I'm not BAME, I'm Black. Everything in my life is framed by Blackness. I do not identify with being BAME, I have no idea what BAME is, it just camouflages real differences in social indicators and how they affect the Black community, because those who are non-Black with proximity to whiteness have an advantage in everything. This isn't the US, but this country has just as diabolical a history with slavery and colonialism that only ended in the last 40 years. Just because it was off shore unlike the US does not mean the UK is somehow better than the US. A country that as recently as 2015 destroyed documents pertaining to atrocities in former colonies in the latter half of the 20th century is no means innocent or progressive.

Also this is BMN. Of course everything is centred and framed from a Black perspective- that is the entire premise of this board.

I definitely hate the phrase BAME. I do not identify with wankers like this woman twitter.com/TheShadeBorough/status/1371127778750431233?s=19
HmmmmmmInteresting · 15/03/2021 00:25

White people love to say 'BAME' when non-white people make up the majority of the world 🤔

Heiferr · 15/03/2021 00:27

All of what @Benelovencd said.

I realised many years ago that there was no place for women like me in Feminism. Feminism for me is always presented as synonymous with White Womanhood. Black womanhood always seems to sit squarely outside of the Feminist sphere as far as I can see which completely goes against what Feminism claims to be about.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 15/03/2021 00:32

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Heiferr · 15/03/2021 00:38

@HmmmmmmInteresting I don''t even bother to read the threads on there for that same reason.

It's unfortunate because I rate prominent black Feminists like Audre Lorde, Bell Hooks etc, and I don't want to dismiss the work that has been done to attempt to carve a space for us but right now, I don't even feel at home in this country I was born in, speak less of feeling at home in a movement that is supposed to support me but generally erases my existence.

Benelovencd · 15/03/2021 00:46

I definitely hate the phrase BAME. I do not identify with wankers like this woman€
twitter.com/TheShadeBorough/status/1371127778750431233?s=19

I can't even. This is why I am Black. Then her anti-blackness will be quoted and used to shut down conversations about Black issues and BLM. You can't just other everyone into BAME, when Black people also experience anti-blackness and racism from others in the BAME group and there is a clear hierarchy as to acceptance based on proximity to whiteness with Black being the bottom of the totem pole, and some groups only remember they are minorities when they are othered then want solidarity with Black people but they were happy to throw us under the bus. Nope not me, it can't be me, I'm not playing that game.

Black women divest from this mess and invest in yourselves and other BW. Solidarity and working together always means putting the issues you face as a BW and other BW face on the back-burner and we will get to it when we can, but right now we are focused on whatever pertinent issues is more important than BW losing their lives. Nope. Not me. I am worth so much more, my voice deserves to be heard, BW deserve to be heard, absolutely noone will prioritise us, we have to prioritise ourselves.

ImaginaryDragon · 15/03/2021 00:47

OP I complety agree with how you feel on feminism and ethnicity. I also feel that way about the current outcry about women's safety - It is not for people like me. Very few women let alone feminists show an understanding of intersectionality. Its just plain depressing.

Gingerkittykat · 15/03/2021 00:52

I'm ashamed to admit I had never heard of Nicole Smallman and Bibaa Henry until I googled them after reading this thread. It may be partly due to the fact I am in Scotland and predominantly read Scottish news sources, listen to Scottish radio and don't watch TV at all but you are right there should have been an outcry when they died and when the police officers took photos of their bodies.

I'm a feminist and have never once heard women's lives matter being suggested as a movement, so it is certainly not a mainstream feminist view.

What can white women like me do to help you have your voice heard?

7Days · 15/03/2021 00:57

Well, I'm a feminist, a white one, though a disorganised kind of one.

There are a lot of feminist issues, for example VAWG and sexual violence, that affect all groups. I dont see, but maybe someone can explain it, why campaigning against that is white feminism - I'm not being goady.

Where there are problems specific to black women, it's not appropriate for white feminists to take the lead but i would certainly support, and I expect that would be the norm.
But I dont know the best way for white feminists to help. Maybe I'm idealistic, but I kind of see it as feminists help women as a whole. Black feminists campaign for black specific problems, and feminists as a whole support them. Same dynamic as disabled/poor/gay/Muslim/traveller women - any characteristic that means you have additional difficulties. The women in that group lead, and everyone else supports from the background.

7Days · 15/03/2021 01:00

Im not in the UK either, so that colours it quite a bit, but I do read quite a bit of UK media, but the only place I'd heard of Nicole Smallman and Bibaa Henry was on the feminist board here.

SionnachRua · 15/03/2021 01:03

MN feminism is toxic in so many ways. I've definitely seen what you're talking about OP, Meghan jumped to mind right away when I saw your title. There was a post the other day about Missing White Woman Syndrome too and it was shocking to see so many people eager to handwave it away (not that it should shock me at this stage but here we are).

I'm really sorry that it's impacting you in this way but I'm so glad you posted. I love seeing posters with similar views to me gather, makes me feel less alone in all of this.

7Days · 15/03/2021 01:03

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