I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman - am I alone?

[FTMF30]

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

• The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time ) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.

• comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).

• the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

• comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.

• comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

I also, feel feel that feminist who are white are quite insular.
Huge generalisation though. Earlier on this thread someone posted that BW are not a monolith- very true. Well neither are WW or feminists!

How is support for jordan Peterson in existence within feminism
Well on that thread a lot of women are saying that they find him problematic but still find his point of view interesting. I don't get this idea that all feminists have to agree or that there is somehow one "true" way to be a feminist. Women make up half the world, if you're waiting for us all to agree, you'll be waiting a long time!

I agree a bit with curry. I'm middle aged, and find that mainstream feminism now is mainly about saving others before ourselves, and promoting sexual exploitation. I don't agree with that definition of feminism, I don't even class those people as actual feminists, but they don't own the word any more than I do.

So I'll keep using feminism to mean what I think it does, and if that puts me under a weird umbrella with gender studies students etc then so be it. The very last thing it does is turn me entirely off fighting patriarchy.

@HmmmmmmInteresting

Just take a look at the 'feminism' board. They use 'woke' as an insult and love people that are pro-Trump. They're trying to ingratiate themselves with the Trumpers to make themselves relevant. It's pathetic. No self respecting woman would get on board with that.

Also they're obsessed with trans people.

Honestly? That's why I don't go there. They never talk about other issues that affect women, anything to do with racism is dismissed as 'identity politics', and they cape for all kinds of mediocre racist white men (and Andy Ngo, who's Asian but very in with the alt-right crowd) if they're sufficiently 'anti-woke'. Trump included. And I'm glad you mentioned the 'woke' thing because it really irritates me how white people have taken a term for black social consciousness and twisted it into an insult.

I'm white, so I lurk this board and don't usually post in it as a rule, but would just like to say that I agree with OP and the feminism espoused on Mumsnet is a very narrow and exclusive type of feminism. The obsession with Meghan Markle creeps me out too. The woman cannot do a thing right, and yet you've got an actual paedophile in the royal family and he gets a pass.

I also wonder how many of the people who are now posting about police violence against women were dismissive of the BLM protests last summer.

@FullofCurryandparatha

I prefer to see it as crystallising the issue at hand without the extraneous navel gazing, actually. I could accuse you of wilful ignorance in dismissing that.

You can accuse me of what you want, you can prefer to see it how you wish. The wording of your post was very telling.

Opinions? Nothing people have detailed here is as simplistic as that.

BW are literally speaking of being excluded from mainstream feminist narratives and your reaction is "we'll carry on without you", you cannot see how that attitude perpetuates the very issue being discussed. I have no intention of trying to turn your view, I'm simply pointing out how problematic that is.

As feminists, your fight is against patriarchy. As BW, our fight it patriarchy, racism, exclusionary feminism, etc etc as well as the far reaching effects of all of those things as they become intertwined.

So feel free to "carry on without us", that's what feminism has been doing any way

You're not alone OP. South Asian here and I feel exactly the same. I read a thread last week on the feminism board praising Kemi Badenoch and posters were completely tone deaf to how painful that is to many of their black sisters. I feel the only way I can make white middle class women understand racism on MN is by comparing it to sexism, otherwise many find it easy to minimise racism when it clearly doesn't affect them directly.
With every struggle for equality, there is a minority from that group, normally career driven social climbers who wish for 'their kind' to be silent lest they're seen as a 'trouble maker' and have a 'can't beat them, join them' attitude. This minority is then lauded, promoted and used to gaslight the majority by those who wish to uphold the status quo. Feminists on MN completely recognise this type when it comes to sexism (i.e. female misogynists) but have a massive blind spot to this type when it comes to racism.

On the other hand there will be a slim minority from the oppressed group who have very luckily escaped prejudice and therefore cannot understand the struggles of the majority from that group (e.g. women who have never experienced sexual harassment or racism) but I would hope such people would educate themselves on the struggles of the majority.

I agree OP that most feminists are only interested in POC when they need their support.

Crikey, don't you people sleep? Anyway, I agree with you OP, 100%. I am black, and I can't seem to get on board with the feminist movement, because it doesn't seem to represent me.

@ParadiseIsland

For me there are several issues raised on this thread.

First of all, the reality is that MN (and the U.K.) is racist. That’s something I’ve noticed for a while. And whilst most people on MN are women, I also don’t think you can say they are all feminists. Far from it. So I don’t you can conflate being a feminist with automatically being racist. I think you have some women who are racist, others who don’t. Some who have no clue/are racist by ignorance of that makes sense. And you have feminists, some of which are feminists and others don’t. I suspect the hard core feminists would take it badly to be told that they are racist.
However... if I speak for myself, even though I don’t see myself as racist, I also appreciate that I am. At the very least because what happens to black women don’t come to my mind immediately as in the exam0es given the OP. I think we (white people) are all racist at some level, albeit sometimes unconsciously.

I also remember reading (I think from the book ‘Why I won’t talk to white people about race’) that often (white) people think that the experience of black women is one of racism plus misogyny as if those two issues were just sitting side by side. Whereas the reality is that they compound each other and the issues experienced by black women are just plainly different to those experienced by white women.
I really can’t comment on that and it stuck with me. So I’m wondering, how do black women think about that statement? Is the issue that actually (white) feminism will always struggle to represent black women about of the difference in struggle?

Last, I think feminism atm is a privilege action. The way it’s approached, the people involved are all in privileged positions (whether it’s because of their skin colour, financially etc....). And it shows.

To answer your question, I think that white feminist will always struggle to represent other women until racism is eradicated.

Also, feminism is a privilege. It was a privilege from the beginning. The women who went of to protest and had the time. Time only exist when uou can delegate some of your house work off. This always feel of poor working class women or black women in the case of America.

In the case of Frederick Douglas, and Helen pitts, they were able to travel and campaign for rights of white women and black men while federicks wife looked after those he sent to his house. Those being smuggled via the rail road. Anna Murray was was a hero who got left out of history. She bought his freedom for him. The other two got married and written in history books.

I am white, and 63 years old. And have been a feminist longer than most of those now claiming the title have been alive.

Not only do I agree with everything you have said OP, but I am equally uncomfortable continuing to use the term to describe myself, because I have little in common with the entitled rantings and hatred perpetrated by so many now claiming to speak for women. There can never be a 100% consensus about what is "right" and what is "wrong". There will always be shades of agreement and disagreement. There will never be perfect solutions. But once upon a time, it was a debate. We could see past disagreement, and work towards common goals and debate differences. Now there is nothing but vitriol and hatred. And the MN boards are full of it and renowned for it.

A country can be called racist when the cornerstones which holds it has a system in place yo discriminate against a certain race of people. The the UK is Racist.
1- the monarchy and whst it means
1- the head of the church, what tge jesus looks like.
3- white supremacy linked to Christianity the royal family is head of. What images are there in Christianity that came out of Europe and England.
4- the govement and laws which acts and discrimination against black people.
5 tge media and how it portrays black people
6- schools and what they teach plus content
7 prison and jury system
8 beauty ideal
Colonial past and and its existence and how that was made possible.
Abuse of black mps and black famous figures who are seen as uppity.
Debt relief and attitude towards but why its also in place.

I am tired and I will stop here.

Has Kate visited any family of many murdered women of colour in the uk, just one of them?

@DeeCeeCherry

Quarks69*

What is meant when a country is called racist though? A country can’t be, only it’s people can be

& It's people are, in the main, racist. We live in a system that casually shrugs off Black deaths in police custody, Black women sexually assaulted raped and murdered, mental health incarceration instead of help, unjust school exclusions, White Men and Women able to build publicity careers and a shedload of money off the back of fashioning themselves into racist "media personalities". & there's much more.

The illegal deportation of 2nd generation Windrush who came here with their parents from colonised countries that had been totally stripped of assets resources and opportunities by Britain - worked and paid taxes here for years then were sent away penniless.

No one alive now in this country was personally involved in the slave trade

But - We the descendants of those kidnapped and enslaved via the Atlantic slave trade, are alive. & here.

In the full knowledge that the living descendants of long dead slavemasters, receive reparations for monetary losses their ancestors incurred when slavery was abolished.

Whilst the descendants of the people they kidnapped and brutalised have suffered the insult of discovering part of our taxes went towards compensating those descendants of the slave masters who who brutally enslaved our Ancestors.

We have received nothing. It's full reparations for White people. Zero reparations for Black people.

Alongside this, priceless and sacred artefacts stolen during enslavement and colonisation, remain in Museums across Britain. There are still shrunken heads and human remains in Museums here.

The ghoulish audacity of some of these so called "liberal" organisations who are racism gatekeepers hiding behind a label of 'cultural diversity' aka 'We won't employ Black people unless as security/cleaners but we'll show off artefacts so we can grab diversity funding)

I've seen a past thread or 2 on that subject, here on Mumsnet:

'Why should you get reparations? Slavery was ages ago. Who is going to pay for it? We aren't responsible for slavery. Get over it'

Lots of us are immigrants, where does the racism come from?

Amongst non-Black immigrant communities coming to UK, there are a good number who are racist to Black people. They assimilate what they see and hear and in any event will be used to scapegoating Black people as it's not just a British thing.

What do white women need to do to stop making op and others feel excluded?

I think this is in a way being answered by other thread comments.

Women's rights are under threat and Women need to unite against that.

Whether that's possible I wonder; if it were possible we'd be a united force to be reckoned with.

But deep down I believe even if solidarity came about, White Women would sooner or later throw Black Women under the bus in favour of the patriarchy.

& those White women who 'get it' are allies, and want rights for all women, just won't be enough in numbers to stop that.

Hence Black Women divest, not least as a matter of safety.

Thank you 😊!

@Gerla

I also, feel feel that feminist who are white are quite insular. Huge generalisation though. Earlier on this thread someone posted that BW are not a monolith- very true. Well neither are WW or feminists!

How is support for jordan Peterson in existence within feminism
Well on that thread a lot of women are saying that they find him problematic but still find his point of view interesting. I don't get this idea that all feminists have to agree or that there is somehow one "true" way to be a feminist. Women make up half the world, if you're waiting for us all to agree, you'll be waiting a long time!

Fair enough. I do understand that white feminist women are all different. However, when most of tge time you get complete silence or trampled over in favour or white women, then the issue becomes monolithic. It's had to remove the anomaly of one or two white women. I guess it counts as not all.

Thank you @DeeCeeCherry for that comprehensive response - I couldn't do it.

Also I would just like to point out the statement

No one alive now in this country was personally involved in the slave trade

was made in response to me mentioning that the UK has a problematic history with colonialism and slavery and that there are 20 and thirty somethings literally referred to as :"born frees" because they are the first generation born free from colonial rule and not have restricted rights because of the colour of their skin. How someone can read that and respond that "well noone responsible for slavery is alive " and suggest that this is a problem from hundreds of years ago is minimising and gaslighting. Everytime I mention this, I have never had just simple acknowledgement from a white person about

1. How recent that is and it is staggering that this was still happening in the latter half of the 20th century
2. How fucked up that is

Just responses about how it was a long time ago, it is not their fault, they will not accept blame for it, nokne they know benefitted from colonialism🙄🙄, to focus on other things. By stating these things I have not asked you to take responsibility for it, how about just acknowledging it happened and was wrong? No rather we are always on the end of denial and gaslighting. I won't hold my breath.

@DeeCeeCherry

Quarks69*

What is meant when a country is called racist though? A country can’t be, only it’s people can be

& It's people are, in the main, racist. We live in a system that casually shrugs off Black deaths in police custody, Black women sexually assaulted raped and murdered, mental health incarceration instead of help, unjust school exclusions, White Men and Women able to build publicity careers and a shedload of money off the back of fashioning themselves into racist "media personalities". & there's much more.

The illegal deportation of 2nd generation Windrush who came here with their parents from colonised countries that had been totally stripped of assets resources and opportunities by Britain - worked and paid taxes here for years then were sent away penniless.

No one alive now in this country was personally involved in the slave trade

But - We the descendants of those kidnapped and enslaved via the Atlantic slave trade, are alive. & here.

In the full knowledge that the living descendants of long dead slavemasters, receive reparations for monetary losses their ancestors incurred when slavery was abolished.

Whilst the descendants of the people they kidnapped and brutalised have suffered the insult of discovering part of our taxes went towards compensating those descendants of the slave masters who who brutally enslaved our Ancestors.

We have received nothing. It's full reparations for White people. Zero reparations for Black people.

Alongside this, priceless and sacred artefacts stolen during enslavement and colonisation, remain in Museums across Britain. There are still shrunken heads and human remains in Museums here.

The ghoulish audacity of some of these so called "liberal" organisations who are racism gatekeepers hiding behind a label of 'cultural diversity' aka 'We won't employ Black people unless as security/cleaners but we'll show off artefacts so we can grab diversity funding)

I've seen a past thread or 2 on that subject, here on Mumsnet:

'Why should you get reparations? Slavery was ages ago. Who is going to pay for it? We aren't responsible for slavery. Get over it'

Lots of us are immigrants, where does the racism come from?

Amongst non-Black immigrant communities coming to UK, there are a good number who are racist to Black people. They assimilate what they see and hear and in any event will be used to scapegoating Black people as it's not just a British thing.

What do white women need to do to stop making op and others feel excluded?

I think this is in a way being answered by other thread comments.

Women's rights are under threat and Women need to unite against that.

Whether that's possible I wonder; if it were possible we'd be a united force to be reckoned with.

But deep down I believe even if solidarity came about, White Women would sooner or later throw Black Women under the bus in favour of the patriarchy.

& those White women who 'get it' are allies, and want rights for all women, just won't be enough in numbers to stop that.

Hence Black Women divest, not least as a matter of safety.

This 100%

Comments like this have been typed out in many forms over the past weekend.
It’s tiring.

Not heard born free before, sobering term.
As you say, it's still so recent and for people to pretend otherwise or minimise is sadly far too common.
I'm white, and can see this, hopefully others can too.

This is a very important thread and one I've been wanting to start for a while now but for 2 reasons:

1. My title was going to be "white feminism" and that's it. I couldn't decide what to write as the opening post. So, stuck.
2. I wasn't sure I wanted to start a thread here, speak less of one quite controversial, I think.

Luckily, OP has done an excellent job with both and I thank you for it. Couldn't have said it better.

Of course I agree with you in general. I've never been able to identify with the label 'feminist' for different reasons that had nothing to do with race. Then the more time I spent on MN and read the feminism board, the more I knew I wasn't part of "this" feminism group and this reason has more to do with race.

I'm all for sex-based rights and many other things feminists campaign for and I sometimes join in agreement when the threads aren't on the feminism board. I feel like I'm encroaching on a full-on white women space if I'm anything but a lurker on that board and I'm someone who's very comfortable in white spaces (Not to be mistaken for 'racist' spaces).

Besides what OP and other posters have mentioned, I've also noticed (and these can be seen as little things but they're signals nonetheless:

1. When people bring up racism, there's a lot of what I describe as NAWWALT (WW - White Women) or NAWPALT (WP - White People) arguments by many women who are feminists, yet these feminists hate NAMALT.

1. The feminism board will only prop up a black woman if she's speaking for white women or what they agree with (See Alison Bailey).

1. There are fewer comments on a thread about a black woman on the feminism board as if most white feminists either can't relate or can't be arsed or both.

I often wonder if those black women who are mentioned positively on the feminism board happen to start talking about race or any issue they (may) face as black women, would they still be mentioned there as WOMEN who're facing an issue or will they be left to deal with their 'black women' problems?

I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists

I felt similarly - less so about not wanting to comment but more about wondering if the person I'm chatting with is racist and wouldn't interact with me if they knew who I am. I decided to make it clear with my username that I'm not white so racists can clear off around me (I doubt they'd want to engage with me unless it's to be goady. So this limits the number of interactions I'd have with them).

Thank you for this thread. I know it isn't for me, but I am listening and learning. I don't fully agree yet- but will absolutely be challenging myself and my perception. Something that may be influencing my perception- I've only come to relatively recently to see how badly women are treated. I've long recognised and despised racism, while being aware I'd never fully see it my appreciation of it has been growing.
I hadn't seen sexism in all its murky glory. There's a bit of recent convert zealot about me. I'll need to check that.

@JillianABlackMNer

This is a very important thread and one I've been wanting to start for a while now but for 2 reasons:

1. My title was going to be "white feminism" and that's it. I couldn't decide what to write as the opening post. So, stuck.
2. I wasn't sure I wanted to start a thread here, speak less of one quite controversial, I think.

Luckily, OP has done an excellent job with both and I thank you for it. Couldn't have said it better.

Of course I agree with you in general. I've never been able to identify with the label 'feminist' for different reasons that had nothing to do with race. Then the more time I spent on MN and read the feminism board, the more I knew I wasn't part of "this" feminism group and this reason has more to do with race.

I'm all for sex-based rights and many other things feminists campaign for and I sometimes join in agreement when the threads aren't on the feminism board. I feel like I'm encroaching on a full-on white women space if I'm anything but a lurker on that board and I'm someone who's very comfortable in white spaces (Not to be mistaken for 'racist' spaces).

Besides what OP and other posters have mentioned, I've also noticed (and these can be seen as little things but they're signals nonetheless:

1. When people bring up racism, there's a lot of what I describe as NAWWALT (WW - White Women) or NAWPALT (WP - White People) arguments by many women who are feminists, yet these feminists hate NAMALT.

1. The feminism board will only prop up a black woman if she's speaking for white women or what they agree with (See Alison Bailey).

1. There are fewer comments on a thread about a black woman on the feminism board as if most white feminists either can't relate or can't be arsed or both.

I often wonder if those black women who are mentioned positively on the feminism board happen to start talking about race or any issue they (may) face as black women, would they still be mentioned there as WOMEN who're facing an issue or will they be left to deal with their 'black women' problems?

I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists

I felt similarly - less so about not wanting to comment but more about wondering if the person I'm chatting with is racist and wouldn't interact with me if they knew who I am. I decided to make it clear with my username that I'm not white so racists can clear off around me (I doubt they'd want to engage with me unless it's to be goady. So this limits the number of interactions I'd have with them).

I agree with you when you said they only suport black women when there is something in it hor white women.

I remember rolling my eyes a while back when there is a discussion around dame somebody who was taking I think a trans group to court or trying to. One of the comments that stood out was " well, she is the right sort of person. They might listen to her more" this was not on the context of class becuase the woman is a dame but it was slyly reference her colour without actually saying it. I say this because the conversation also revolved around another white woman who was also a dame becuase of her work to literature. I think she has since been removed from the board she created. Something like that.

@WobbliHead3000

Comments like this have been typed out in many forms over the past weekend. It’s tiring.

I agree with that comment. I'm of the opinion that this has come as a shock to many because it's not a treatment normally expected of a police officer towards a white woman/MC white woman. Had it been a black woman (MC or not), it would be seen as par for the course and her "past sins" would've been dug out to try and lesson the impact. If there were none, her reasons for being where she was would have been tainted then questioned.

I've seen this happen many times.

@debbrianna I think I remember a Dame woman and what you said, only vaguely, but also can't remember her name.

That was supposed to say *lessen, not "lesson the impact".

Constantly fighting with autocorrect and missing some words still.

I totally agree with everything you’ve said OP. I hear you.

@Level32

The recent thread comparing drag queens to minstrels and the 'feminist' replies certainly made me question whether I wanted to share the feminist label.

Absolutely agree.