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Black Mumsnetters

This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.

I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman - am I alone?

578 replies

FTMF30 · 14/03/2021 20:27

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

  • The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time Hmm) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.
  • comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).
  • the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

  • comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.
  • comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
debbrianna · 15/03/2021 23:20

@StartingGrid

FYI, this exact conversation is being held on Newsnight right now
Omg I am getting the rage at how tge police commissioner just did line the woman from sister space. I am glad her facial expression said it all. Wtf
EchoCardioGran · 15/03/2021 23:22

Thanks @maggiethecat. Lovely to see you Flowers and some familiar names here.
Over to read the other thread now.

ImpatiensI · 15/03/2021 23:31

why are you feeling attacked at a conversation that is centring feminism from a black perspective?

Because that isn't what's happening. I know and admire many black/oc feminists, they've got plenty to truths to say about white women but they don't spew out lies in this way, trying to divide and degrade. I feel there's a hidden agenda here and it's sinister.

I'm not feeling personally attacked because I don't recognise the picture that's being painted, I reject it.

And using Sarah Everard's name in the way you're doing here is really sick. Leaving you to it now, this isn't a healthy place to be.

maggiethecat · 15/03/2021 23:36

@EchoCardioGran
Good to see you too! I dip in and out now and then and sometimes feel as if it's better to stick to the food threads and such - nice and cosy and no nasties!

How did your xmas cake turn out?

Misbeehived · 15/03/2021 23:41

Good thread.

I despise the feminist board on mumsnet. It is a very particular brand of feminism mired in group think. I don’t recognise much of what they describe as feminism. The odd transphobic obsession to the detriment of everything else? I would never get drawn in there.

The Ops other points are completely true too. But draw a distinction though between the feminist boards on mumsnet and the more general trends on the boards. There are out and out racists (covert and goady) who will never change but it feels like there are more people starting to challenge things more and more. It’s only when they see the revolting comments and gaslighting about MM that they realise what it must be like for their friend without wealth or a public voice, or they felt grief for Sarah Everard then feel angry as #shewasjustwalkinghome is such a universal issue, and then wonder why they haven’t heard more about other horrific cases like that of Nicola Henry too.

I am a feminist. Feminism as I encountered it in the 90s was intersectional - one of the reasons why it spoke to me as a black woman. I guess I’m saying not all feminism is the same and I feel maybe naively things are starting to shift.

Griefmonster · 15/03/2021 23:45

Hello @FTMF30 I have only just seen your thread and am sorry to see the state of discussion from some posters being willfully obtuse or just plain ignorant.

I am interested in the part of your experience that is the frustration at parallels being drawn between the structures of patriarchy and white supremacy. I have for a while thought of it as a 3 legged monster - with white supremacy, patriarchy and capitalism being in a dysnfcuntional co-dependent relationship to uphold each other. I got quite "excited" when I read about critical race theory and saw many parallels with my thoughts about patriarchy. I do identify as a feminist but also see it's many flaws. Maybe anti-patriarchy would be a better description for me?

Anyway your post raised some interesting challenges for me so I'm going to read more about some of the issues with trying to co-opt anti racism work for dismantling the patriarchy.

Thank you.

maggiethecat · 15/03/2021 23:46

"And using Sarah Everard's name in the way you're doing here is really sick. Leaving you to it now, this isn't a healthy place to be."

I'm not addressing that poster directly but if the above is in response to my reference to the differential outcry in Sarah's case and that of Nicole and Bibaa I'm hardly surprised - this poster has shown her form very clearly.

julietmanchester · 15/03/2021 23:58

Another white woman posting - I agree 100 percent what is being done and said about MM. I feel marginalised as a white woman that I feel completely the opposite - she is in my opinion someone I would relate to and look up to more than say kate Middleton.

It's not the race factor - it's that to be quite frank, Kate Middleton is very 'stepford wife' type that I normally wouldn't even find relatable or interesting. Meghan, on the other hand, is someone I would rather have tea with or grab a drink with. I also like meghan markles style more. But that's due to me and my girlfriends are more like meghan markle in the way she carries herself.

I also agree about the difference in uproar when a non Whitt woman is murdered, as opposed to a white woman. That's why I'm not a feminist, it just seems hypocritical. They should name it white feminists, to be more accurate.

adrianmolesmole · 16/03/2021 00:25

I'm Asian and I don't blame you OP. I don't relate to the feminists on here, Mumsnet has the most right-wing feminists I've ever come across.

But I don't believe the feminists on MN represent all feminists around the world. No one I know IRL of any race who is a feminist is remotely like the ones you get on MN, they seem to be a weird rabid type all of their own here.

ImpatiensI · 16/03/2021 01:11

@maggiethecat

"And using Sarah Everard's name in the way you're doing here is really sick. Leaving you to it now, this isn't a healthy place to be."

I'm not addressing that poster directly but if the above is in response to my reference to the differential outcry in Sarah's case and that of Nicole and Bibaa I'm hardly surprised - this poster has shown her form very clearly.

It wasn't. And you and so many others here are also making your 'form' very clear - absolutely transparent.
BiggapTwins · 16/03/2021 02:28

Such a great thread OP! Bravery to post opinions, facts, experiences, ask pertinent questions and discuss seems to be de riguer. As does the cyclical nature of history. Yet an advancement is ignoring. Granted, it'll be judged and weaponised to assasinate character etc. Yet what other way?

Delphinium20 · 16/03/2021 03:09

OP, thanks for posting. I completely agree about MM. I remember watching some of the royals sniggering at her wedding and it felt quite wrong to me...disrespectful to the minister. Highly doubt they'd have acted like that with an old white Church of England clergyman.

Im particularly grateful you brought up the comparisons of drag and black face - I've made that argument myself and I'm sorry. I didn't realize it was in poor taste. I won't do it again.

Delphinium20 · 16/03/2021 03:21

Oops. Posted too soon. Wanted to add that while I agree with so many amazing posters on FWR, there are some who I have argued with on BLM because they just don't get it...I'm an American and racism in police forces is real and ugly...I'm holding my breath hoping to god they put away the cop who murdered George Floyd. The local BLM chapter in my city is run by Black women who I support wholeheartedly.

However, I hope you don't give up on feminism altogether. Without Black feminists speaking up, we wouldn't know about Breonna Taylor and as disgusting it is how her killers got off, Black feminists pushed whites people to talk about her...I hope her memory will not be in vain.

Riv12345 · 16/03/2021 04:07

Am I allowed to comment on here if I'm white?

Lille4 · 16/03/2021 04:12

Completely agree with you OP. The reaction to Sarah's death has left me feeling torn in so many ways. I want to support and get involved (because what happened to her is absolutely disgusting ) but I also want to scream at some of the women on my timeline who seem to be ONLY just realising the extent of police brutality and corruption.

Hello?! We been shouting about this for months now. Yet we're told 'Blue Lives Matter'. Suddenly in the wake of Sarah's tragic death, white women are on board with #DefundThePolice ? Most of the time, it does leave black women feeling as if when we speak up, we're not heard or taken seriously until heard if white women can relate.

Barbadosgirl · 16/03/2021 06:13

Another white woman here but I would say it is simple, OP: if you don’t think feminism as it is in this country today offers enough or is welcoming to black women (and you are not the first black woman I have heard say that) then we should listen to you and those other women. Feminism is no good if it just caters to one section of women. Of all those those you have mentioned the MM thing has jumped out at me the most. As far as I can see she is no more objectionable than any other ridiculously rich person who has married into an unjustifiable institution but the amount of vitriol she gets is insane. I stopped following a so called rad fem on Twitter who posted about her constantly, like some sort of Piers Morgan alt account.

OutComeTheWolves · 16/03/2021 07:10

I agree with you completely. Sadly I see a lot of similarities on here between some women on MN when the black female experience is discussed and my husband when I try and discuss male aggression/violence - a lot of dismissing and playing devil's advocate.

I was however slightly heartened to see how many people thought the women's lives matter idea was a load of shit.

RedMarauder · 16/03/2021 08:58

I was told when I was little that I had one mouth and two ears, and should use them in that order. It seems that the white women posting here don't understand that.

They have been repeatedly told by black posters that they aren't welcome but instead of listening, reading and going away to educate themselves they insist on putting their oar specifically to tell black women what are wrong in what our lived experiences are. This is antagonism of myself and other black women. Antagonism is racism.

TedMullins · 16/03/2021 09:40

I know we’re not allowed to reference other threads but there’s one up right now that is a glaring example of how the “feminism” on here is not remotely intersectional. Just read it and felt a bit physically ill. I believe you all, I’m listening

C130 · 16/03/2021 09:50

Sugarintheplum Your post has touched me. It speaks so many truths. Please do not let anyone put you off from being on here.

ImpatiensI · 16/03/2021 10:17

@Delphinium20

OP, thanks for posting. I completely agree about MM. I remember watching some of the royals sniggering at her wedding and it felt quite wrong to me...disrespectful to the minister. Highly doubt they'd have acted like that with an old white Church of England clergyman.

Im particularly grateful you brought up the comparisons of drag and black face - I've made that argument myself and I'm sorry. I didn't realize it was in poor taste. I won't do it again.

I've never made that comparison, for precisely that reason.

I really wish someone would explain to me how feminism is to blame for the attacks on MM.

EchoCardioGran · 16/03/2021 10:26

No one has said feminism is to blame for the attacks on MM.

Yet another falsehood in an attempt to derail the thread.

Misbeehived · 16/03/2021 11:27

Just popping back to add for the epitome of awful feminists google Julie Birchill’s apology to Ash Saker in response to the defamation action brought against her. She accepts in detail her misogyny, racism and lies she used against someone she didn’t like. Think it says a lot for that brand of feminism...

KevinTheGoat · 16/03/2021 11:30

@Misbeehived

Just popping back to add for the epitome of awful feminists google Julie Birchill’s apology to Ash Saker in response to the defamation action brought against her. She accepts in detail her misogyny, racism and lies she used against someone she didn’t like. Think it says a lot for that brand of feminism...
Julie Burchill is incredibly racist and yet loads of people on here love her because she's anti-trans. She's said some absolutely shocking things about Muslims and Arabs (and I'd argue that the way she talks about Jews is pretty disturbing as well, she sees us as things and not people).
EchoCardioGran · 16/03/2021 11:43

Funnily enough, I was seeing Julie Birchill's face reading some of those patronising posts claiming to be "experts" on women's suffrage.

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