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Black Mumsnetters

This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.

I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman - am I alone?

578 replies

FTMF30 · 14/03/2021 20:27

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

  • The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time Hmm) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.
  • comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).
  • the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

  • comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.
  • comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
JillianABlackMNer · 15/03/2021 21:42

This reminds me of something a lot of feminists on here hate: "Man here...", then proceeds to tell women why they're wrong/don't understand/aren't giving satisfactory answers so they (men) will accept what's been said, etc.

This time it's "White feminist here or white woman here...", then proceeds to tell black women...

ImpatiensI · 15/03/2021 21:44

If you were really interested to find answers you could look yourself. You have access to MN so you must have access to Google.

They're your accusations - and it seems clear that you can't back them up at all. You're happy to hijack the cause of a black feminist to try to attack white feminists, solely to cause division and try to weaken feminism as a whole - Hibo Wardere would certainly not want that done in her name.

Heiferr · 15/03/2021 21:45

Jesus wept.

Conversation where learning takes place is one thing, but it isn't up to us to educate you on demand.

Literally nobody who was sharing their experience here has accused or attacked anyone but this is just the Angry Black Woman trope in a thinly veiled disguise.

Some of you have done an amazing job of proving the original point that was being made.

debbrianna · 15/03/2021 21:48

But the work she does is what counts as the act that can be carried out under femism. Which means, if she hadn't called her self a feminist, she would have still got abused. The women fighting fgm in places I know off get abuse all the time. If they didn't, FGM would nolonger exist. But it does and patriarchy will always give its way to fight it.
Only if thry cared about those women during child birth. And yes, high killer for black women in child birth.

ImpatiensI · 15/03/2021 21:52

Literally nobody who was sharing their experience here has accused or attacked anyone but this is just the Angry Black Woman trope in a thinly veiled disguise.

But that's clearly untrue - wrapped in a thinly veiled accusation of racism to try to silence. This is so wrong.

PasstheBucket89 · 15/03/2021 21:52

im not black, but i do also wonder if feminism being very white also combines with it being quite elitist, it certainly sneers at poorly educated working class women, doesn't seem to wanna do much for them, maybe why it alienates so many, that could be a false equivalence but i wonder
if its a sort of link.

DerangedRange · 15/03/2021 21:53

“When you raise an issue do you usually expect everyone just to agree with you or stfu?”

No, but I expect you to have access to Google and make up your own mind

It’s not the job of Black women to educate you on every little thing. OP asked people to listen, and your post is the equivalent of not letting people finish what they were going to say.

But thank you for explaining feminism for women of colour to me, I must have been doing it wrong all this time.

ImpatiensI · 15/03/2021 21:57

No, but I expect you to have access to Google and make up your own mind. It’s not the job of Black women to educate you on every little thing.

You made an accusation. I can't 'google' it because it's a false accusation, which is why you refuse to give any evidence for it.

ImpatiensI · 15/03/2021 21:58

@ItsLoisSangersFault

The obsession with transpeople on the feminist boards here just demonstrates what a privileged position these posters are coming from.
That's a very telling post.
DerangedRange · 15/03/2021 21:58

I didn’t even write that original post that you were complaining about Hmm

ParadiseIsland · 15/03/2021 22:01

Thanks for the video @MolyHolyGuacamole

ParadiseIsland · 15/03/2021 22:03

Wow. This thread is derailing fast. :(:(:(

DerangedRange · 15/03/2021 22:04

Seriously, put 2 and 2 together. I didn’t know who Hibo Wardere is either. I looked her up, she’s an anti-FGM campaigner. I think the original poster was getting at Hibo Wardere’s statement that trans issues are not her issues. From that I can guess that some feminists have complained that Hibo Wardere does not include trans women, rather than support the work she does.

For what it’s worth, I support trans women wholeheartedly but I can also get Hibo Wardere’s point that her campaign, specifically, is about girls who were born with female genitalia.

If I can figure it out from Google, surely others can, too, without having to command that a Black poster must present all the information on a platter.

Fourbagsofchips · 15/03/2021 22:07

@ImpatiensI are you on this board because there's no one for you to fight on fwr? On that board there are always lots of women talking about the invasion of males into women's spaces. If you are white, you are essentially doing the same thing, imposing yourself on a black women's space. Enough please.

Ikeameatballs · 15/03/2021 22:08

This has been a really interesting thread for me to read. I’m a WW who strongly identifies as a feminist and I will do all that I can going forwards to include BW in my feminism. Thank you for educating me.

Heiferr · 15/03/2021 22:10

@ImpatiensI

Literally nobody who was sharing their experience here has accused or attacked anyone but this is just the Angry Black Woman trope in a thinly veiled disguise.

But that's clearly untrue - wrapped in a thinly veiled accusation of racism to try to silence. This is so wrong.

Loosely translated as "stop playing the race card"

So transparent.

If you cannot see that white women coming to this post to tell black women they are wrong, centering themselves with claims of attacks and complete dismissal of the lived experiences is pretty disgusting, it is simply because you do not want to. Again, this proves the original point.

Anyway, argue with yourself. I won't be engaging any further.

Thanks to @FTMF30 for starting what began as a meaningful conversation. It was comforting to me as a BW who as long felt marginalised by feminism that I am not alone and it was also nice to see WW approach the conversation from a place of respect.

I hope those of you that came here with your fragile feminist egos and obvious agendas are proud of yourselves for trampling all over women that you claim to stand in solidarity with. After all, feminism is for all women, regardless of what their experiences are, right? Hmm

Quaagars · 15/03/2021 22:26

They're your accusations - and it seems clear that you can't back them up at all. You're happy to hijack the cause of a black feminist to try to attack white feminists

Jeez - why are you feeling attacked at a conversation that is centring feminism from a black perspective?
People clearly haven't said "all white feminists", have they - this whole conversation is rapidly going "white lives matter too!" Hmm

Sugarintheplum · 15/03/2021 22:31

I'm about to venture on the feminist chat board and I hope to God that I see plenty of threads there about black women now. Hold on.... Nope, not one. Please WW go there and talk with other WW about some of the issues you have learned about here. Go forth and raise awareness among them and stop telling us that we're not enough - not conciliatory enough, not feminist enough, not active enough, not respectful of feminist history enough, not arguing our points well enough - when it strikes me the OP wasn't even talking to you.

I do call myself feminist. Largely because I don't want that to be another area of life that WW exclude me from. I call myself feminist despite WW rather than because I feel included by them, and I am someone who spent many years active in the feminist movement in the UK alongside WW, mostly in London, organising (protests, demonstrations, conferences, events, meetings, worked for years in rape crisis centres for free). Issues that impacted BW were so marginalised in the end we organised among ourselves, and it was glorious.

WW have also been on here talking about protests and demonstrations and the like as though that is true feminist activity. Let me tell you about black women and our feminism. We are taking our hard earned UK sterling and sending it to the Caribbean, Africa and we are putting girls through school. We are buying books for the village. We are helping women set up small businesses. We are paying for their legal aid. We do this quietly, without talking about it, without boasting. We are mentoring young people all over the world. Listen: YOU DO NOT KNOW the extent of feminism that we do. You think feminism is chanting a pithy little rhyme over and over again while walking down Regent Street in your thick thermal jacket and your shoes with no holes and your Costa hot chocolate in one hand and a placard in other (which you pass to your friend when it gets to heavy but take back when it's time to take a selfie)? I consider that mostly a distraction from real work that can be done. I personally tutor school girls for free. This is feminist work. I did not attend the vigil on Saturday. I didn't want to be one of the many black women who were arrested (and who did not make it on to the front pages. I'm sure there were some because London police are not about to arrest white women and leave black women standing around swinging their arms freely). I feared the police way before Sarah Everard was murdered by one. I know about Joy Gardner, Cynthia Jarrett.

I'm sorry to the bottom of my heart for Sarah Everard. One thing I have noticed is that no one has mentioned that she was out having broken the lockdown rules, which I believe is a crime. Do you know how many innocent black people have died at police hands having committed absolutely no crime? Please go look it up. You probably can't name names because there was no mass public outcry about it. After looking it up, go to bed, wake and ask yourself to recall just one of the names. If you can't remember (and I suspect some of you won't), please interrogate yourself on why that might be. The BW on here know the reason why.

To my black sisters. One of the factors that put me off white feminism is the treatment of black men. I totally get the ire directed at men in general, and then white men in particular. However, as a black woman who loves the black men in her life, values black men in society and recognises how patriarchy oppresses and upends them, I just could't get on board with the blanket demonisation of black men. I don't think black men are without fault. They share the same faults as all men when it comes to women. However, they are by no means at the root of the problem the way white men are. I couldn't survive with my soul whole and in tact in a place like that. And relatedly, I see much of white men in their sisters, their daughters, and mothers, such as the ones who have posted on here and want to tell us they are feminists when they shout down black women and our experiences. It baffles me that they then expect us to distinguish them from their brothers and fathers. I, for one, do not.

I won't post on here again. In general I just can't stand threads on BM that are hijacked by WW so I mostly stay away now.

EchoCardioGran · 15/03/2021 22:53

Well now, it's been a while since I was here.

Still the endless jumping in here to explain things to the Black Women?
And not letting their lack of Black Women's History get in the way.Yet claiming to be "experts"?

Great thread OP. Clearly a conversation that needs to be had amongst BMN. I want to know what Black Women think and feel. Not be told what to think and feel, by the thought police.

"I do not fear the wind or the waves
But I know that no matter how I go
The spirit of prejudice will meet me"

Sarah Parker Remond 1858

StartingGrid · 15/03/2021 22:54

@Sugarintheplum

I'm about to venture on the feminist chat board and I hope to God that I see plenty of threads there about black women now. Hold on.... Nope, not one. Please WW go there and talk with other WW about some of the issues you have learned about here. Go forth and raise awareness among them and stop telling us that we're not enough - not conciliatory enough, not feminist enough, not active enough, not respectful of feminist history enough, not arguing our points well enough - when it strikes me the OP wasn't even talking to you.

I do call myself feminist. Largely because I don't want that to be another area of life that WW exclude me from. I call myself feminist despite WW rather than because I feel included by them, and I am someone who spent many years active in the feminist movement in the UK alongside WW, mostly in London, organising (protests, demonstrations, conferences, events, meetings, worked for years in rape crisis centres for free). Issues that impacted BW were so marginalised in the end we organised among ourselves, and it was glorious.

WW have also been on here talking about protests and demonstrations and the like as though that is true feminist activity. Let me tell you about black women and our feminism. We are taking our hard earned UK sterling and sending it to the Caribbean, Africa and we are putting girls through school. We are buying books for the village. We are helping women set up small businesses. We are paying for their legal aid. We do this quietly, without talking about it, without boasting. We are mentoring young people all over the world. Listen: YOU DO NOT KNOW the extent of feminism that we do. You think feminism is chanting a pithy little rhyme over and over again while walking down Regent Street in your thick thermal jacket and your shoes with no holes and your Costa hot chocolate in one hand and a placard in other (which you pass to your friend when it gets to heavy but take back when it's time to take a selfie)? I consider that mostly a distraction from real work that can be done. I personally tutor school girls for free. This is feminist work. I did not attend the vigil on Saturday. I didn't want to be one of the many black women who were arrested (and who did not make it on to the front pages. I'm sure there were some because London police are not about to arrest white women and leave black women standing around swinging their arms freely). I feared the police way before Sarah Everard was murdered by one. I know about Joy Gardner, Cynthia Jarrett.

I'm sorry to the bottom of my heart for Sarah Everard. One thing I have noticed is that no one has mentioned that she was out having broken the lockdown rules, which I believe is a crime. Do you know how many innocent black people have died at police hands having committed absolutely no crime? Please go look it up. You probably can't name names because there was no mass public outcry about it. After looking it up, go to bed, wake and ask yourself to recall just one of the names. If you can't remember (and I suspect some of you won't), please interrogate yourself on why that might be. The BW on here know the reason why.

To my black sisters. One of the factors that put me off white feminism is the treatment of black men. I totally get the ire directed at men in general, and then white men in particular. However, as a black woman who loves the black men in her life, values black men in society and recognises how patriarchy oppresses and upends them, I just could't get on board with the blanket demonisation of black men. I don't think black men are without fault. They share the same faults as all men when it comes to women. However, they are by no means at the root of the problem the way white men are. I couldn't survive with my soul whole and in tact in a place like that. And relatedly, I see much of white men in their sisters, their daughters, and mothers, such as the ones who have posted on here and want to tell us they are feminists when they shout down black women and our experiences. It baffles me that they then expect us to distinguish them from their brothers and fathers. I, for one, do not.

I won't post on here again. In general I just can't stand threads on BM that are hijacked by WW so I mostly stay away now.

The murder of Elijah McClain by Colorado police upset me deeply, perhaps because his reported interests resonated with me so in a way I could identify with him but then he was killed walking down the street which is something very unlikely to happen to me as a white woman.

I vocalised today how I wondered if Sarah Everard had broken lockdown rules, to my surprise I wasn't the only one who had thought that, whereas on here I would have been shot down as an apologist/police conspirator/troll.

Those protestors weren't in my name, I found their actions disrepectful and slightly hysterical. It was puzzling to watch women try and claim they were championing for women, as a sisterhood, even though there were a bunch of men there amongst them.

Also, team Meghan for the record, and think Piers Morgan should seek medical guidance for his creepy obsession.

StartingGrid · 15/03/2021 22:58

FYI, this exact conversation is being held on Newsnight right now

EchoCardioGran · 15/03/2021 23:00

@StartingGrid

FYI, this exact conversation is being held on Newsnight right now
Just having a look now....
OneDrop · 15/03/2021 23:02

Thank you FTMF30

“I don’t even have the words” - as you said in your OP - seems to be happening to me more and more these days. I’m also exhausted.

I’m mixed race white/asian and at times in my life thought I was white passing but I’m not so sure I really was. Although I definitely feel ‘not black enough’ the truth is the more this messy debate oozes out of the ground the more often I find myself reading or hearing black women articulating my experience and feelings better than I can.

The horribleness directed at MM is so shocking to me it’s silencing.

🌻🌻🌻

EchoCardioGran · 15/03/2021 23:07

Sistah Space speaker.
Sadly missed all but the last minute of what she had to say.

maggiethecat · 15/03/2021 23:17

@EchoCardioGran
Only caught a bit of what she was saying - she and a few other BW had attended the vigil and were shocked at the police tactics. She also added that whilst BW were supportive of the vigil for Sarah she wondered where the support and outcry (implicitly from WW) was for BW such as Nicole and Bibaa.

There is a current thread "black girls matter" where similar concerns have been expressed.

Swipe left for the next trending thread