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Black Mumsnetters

This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.

I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman - am I alone?

578 replies

FTMF30 · 14/03/2021 20:27

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

  • The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time Hmm) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.
  • comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).
  • the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

  • comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.
  • comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
MolyHolyGuacamole · 16/03/2021 11:47

@adrianmolesmole

I'm Asian and I don't blame you OP. I don't relate to the feminists on here, Mumsnet has the most right-wing feminists I've ever come across.

But I don't believe the feminists on MN represent all feminists around the world. No one I know IRL of any race who is a feminist is remotely like the ones you get on MN, they seem to be a weird rabid type all of their own here.

Wholeheartedly!
Misbeehived · 16/03/2021 11:53

Yes exactly @KevinTheGoat once you realise who some of the people holding themselves out to be feminists really are you realise there is no point at all in engaging with them.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 16/03/2021 11:53

Julie Burchill is incredibly racist and yet loads of people on here love her because she's anti-trans. She's said some absolutely shocking things about Muslims and Arabs (and I'd argue that the way she talks about Jews is pretty disturbing as well, she sees us as things and not people).

The 'feminists' on MN love to find a group they consider as even lower down in the pecking order than them and then pick on them. Hence the racism and psychotic obsession with trans people. Why else would they be 'right wing'?

RedMarauder · 16/03/2021 12:00

Julie Burchill is incredibly racist and yet loads of people on here love her because she's anti-trans. She's said some absolutely shocking things about Muslims and Arabs (and I'd argue that the way she talks about Jews is pretty disturbing as well, she sees us as things and not people).

Burchill has made covert racist comments about black women as well.

Anyway Burchill picked on the wrong brown woman - www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/16/julie-burchill-muslim-islamophobic

Oh and I just heard an interview with Ash Sarkar. Burchill did exactly all black woman have experienced from white woman they have pointed out they have been racist towards them - Burchill gaslighted and made the racism bigger while Burchill pretended to be the victim.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 16/03/2021 12:34

@RedMarauder

Julie Burchill is incredibly racist and yet loads of people on here love her because she's anti-trans. She's said some absolutely shocking things about Muslims and Arabs (and I'd argue that the way she talks about Jews is pretty disturbing as well, she sees us as things and not people).

Burchill has made covert racist comments about black women as well.

Anyway Burchill picked on the wrong brown woman - www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/16/julie-burchill-muslim-islamophobic

Oh and I just heard an interview with Ash Sarkar. Burchill did exactly all black woman have experienced from white woman they have pointed out they have been racist towards them - Burchill gaslighted and made the racism bigger while Burchill pretended to be the victim.

'Feminist'. LOL

Good on Ash for sueing the arse off her.

Starseeking · 16/03/2021 13:00

@RedMarauder

Julie Burchill is incredibly racist and yet loads of people on here love her because she's anti-trans. She's said some absolutely shocking things about Muslims and Arabs (and I'd argue that the way she talks about Jews is pretty disturbing as well, she sees us as things and not people).

Burchill has made covert racist comments about black women as well.

Anyway Burchill picked on the wrong brown woman - www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/16/julie-burchill-muslim-islamophobic

Oh and I just heard an interview with Ash Sarkar. Burchill did exactly all black woman have experienced from white woman they have pointed out they have been racist towards them - Burchill gaslighted and made the racism bigger while Burchill pretended to be the victim.

What Burchill did to Ash Sarkar is absolutely disgusting. If a Black person waged a similar campaign against a white journalist, say Sarah Vine, the police would be on their doorstep and taking them to the station faster than you could say online abuse.

And Burchill is a woman (white) feminists revere???Confused

DioneTheDiabolist · 16/03/2021 13:03

I don't blame you OP.Sad Quite a few white, MC feminists become so attached to being MOPEs that they hate anyone who challenges this narrative. This, combined with the incredibly exclusionary nature of FWR here means that Feminism on MN is certainly not for all women or even all feminists who post on this site.

Racism impacts 100% of black people so it's hardly surprising that black women feel it necessary to prioritise something that effects all of their family, not 50%.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 16/03/2021 13:05

@DioneTheDiabolist

I don't blame you OP.Sad Quite a few white, MC feminists become so attached to being MOPEs that they hate anyone who challenges this narrative. This, combined with the incredibly exclusionary nature of FWR here means that Feminism on MN is certainly not for all women or even all feminists who post on this site.

Racism impacts 100% of black people so it's hardly surprising that black women feel it necessary to prioritise something that effects all of their family, not 50%.

What is MOPES?
DioneTheDiabolist · 16/03/2021 13:14

Most Oppressed People Ever.

Peanutbutterandbananatoastie · 16/03/2021 13:18

@Misbeehived

Good thread.

I despise the feminist board on mumsnet. It is a very particular brand of feminism mired in group think. I don’t recognise much of what they describe as feminism. The odd transphobic obsession to the detriment of everything else? I would never get drawn in there.

The Ops other points are completely true too. But draw a distinction though between the feminist boards on mumsnet and the more general trends on the boards. There are out and out racists (covert and goady) who will never change but it feels like there are more people starting to challenge things more and more. It’s only when they see the revolting comments and gaslighting about MM that they realise what it must be like for their friend without wealth or a public voice, or they felt grief for Sarah Everard then feel angry as #shewasjustwalkinghome is such a universal issue, and then wonder why they haven’t heard more about other horrific cases like that of Nicola Henry too.

I am a feminist. Feminism as I encountered it in the 90s was intersectional - one of the reasons why it spoke to me as a black woman. I guess I’m saying not all feminism is the same and I feel maybe naively things are starting to shift.

I agree with this (though I’m white)

I’m glad this is being discussed, I have tried to engage people on the feminism boards about trans issues using a different username and been ridiculed by other posters and they decided I was either a man or a trans woman.

Also the threads on the song WAP omg we were all apparently such idiots for suggesting the song never claimed to be feminist in the 1st place and that the lyrics might be quite self aware and tongue in cheek.

ShutUpAlex · 16/03/2021 13:49

I wonder if this thread will get discussed over in the feminism topic.

hotpotlover · 16/03/2021 14:07

You know what, I am a white woman, but I agree with you. In the UK, and also in other Western countries, a woman is murdered every 3 days by a man.
This has been going on long before Sarah Everard.

I feel tremendously sad about Sarah's death and I can't imagine the pain and suffering she went through before her death.

That being said, the cynic in me can't help but notice that we only seem to pay attention and be outraged if a white, attractive, middle-class woman is killed.

Do we only care about victims if they look like us?

The same thing with the Madeleine McCann case; while plenty of children go missing everyday, none of them got the coverage that Madeleine got.

There's also special hate and vitriol against Meghan Markle, which is totally unjustified. I can only attribute that to her being half black.

ImpatiensI · 16/03/2021 14:34

@EchoCardioGran

No one has said feminism is to blame for the attacks on MM.

Yet another falsehood in an attempt to derail the thread.

It's one of the claims listed in the OP.
BiBabbles · 16/03/2021 14:35

I do feel detached more and more from feminist discussions, even when I've the energy to try to be part of it. I find both currently mainstream variant liberal feminism that focuses a lot on choice which will always prioritize those who have more choices and what is more on here as a variant of radical feminism that focuses on sex-based oppression, though often only in very specific ways leaves me feeling that that's good for other women, but not women like me.

I'm mixed - Mestizo, have multiple disabilities, most of the violence in my life has been female-perpetrated by either White women or mixed women who generally pass as White, and yes, some of that won't be under many of the remits of feminism & I'm more than happy for people to focus their energies on where they wish, but many discussion in feminist spaces seems to be at a distance from my experiences in a way that often comes across that those experiences are irrelevant because they're not whichever brand's model of women's experiences, that my experiences and ways of being are viewed as more a detriment to their 'cause' than anything.

Across the many different branches of feminism, I've not really found a place, and too often - possibly more in the last decade - it's all felt very weaponized towards getting women to toe the line, to make the right complaints, to make feminism an identity and an image to uphold rather than a way to plan, organize, agitate for real action rather than something that looks nice to some.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 16/03/2021 14:41

It's one of the claims listed in the OP.
Hmm

ImpatiensI · 16/03/2021 14:53

@HmmmmmmInteresting

It's one of the claims listed in the OP. Hmm
And your point is?

One of the items in the list in the OP is about the vitriol directed at MM. The title of the thread is about a black woman who feels detached from feminism. I'm asking why that vitriol would make someone feel detached from feminism.

AIMummy · 16/03/2021 14:53

Some time ago, there was a thread on the feminism board stating that all hijabi wearing women are oppressed. Me and another hijabi wearing sister tried to explain our real life experience & reasons for wearing it and we got shouted down. Basically the gist of it was "no, we know what's best for you, you don't". There was a lone open-minded WW on there defending us but the the rest of that thread sounded like closet Islamophobes/racists.

And this is an example of the hypocrisy on there: last week they were praising an hijabi wearing author Onjali Rauf for speaking up about gender ideology. If she knew what some of them really thought of hijabis she would probably rightly tell them to p*$$ off. They only like the "right type of feminist" on there. A bit like how a mysogynist's ideal woman is lauded as "one of the boys" or a racist's ideal ethnic minority is lauded as "one of the good ones".

SionnachRua · 16/03/2021 14:56

@DioneTheDiabolist

Most Oppressed People Ever.
Oh I love this acronym, it describes that corner of MN perfectly Grin
HmmmmmmInteresting · 16/03/2021 15:00

@ImpatiensI you are just trying to derail the thread so I'm going to put you on mute now!

ImpatiensI · 16/03/2021 15:02

Can you link to that thread @AIMummy or remember the title so I can have a read? Thanks.

FWR on here has a huge range of women of all ages and backgrounds, sure on certain issues you might find your opinion is in the minority but that depends what the opinion is. The only 'right kind' if Feminist is one who centres Women/Girls, that's it, it's that basic.

ImpatiensI · 16/03/2021 15:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AIMummy · 16/03/2021 15:08

ImpatiensI sorry I won't be looking for that thread as it was really upsetting and I ended up not visiting MN for 6 months because of it. You can do a search if you want but you might have to wade through the many derogatory previous MN threads on this subject (under different boards) before you find it.

ImpatiensI · 16/03/2021 15:16

I'm only concerned with the feminism board @AIMummy as the allegations on this thread specifically refer to that and I'd like to read the thread you mentioned being involved with.

I understand if you don't want to look for it, can you tell me how long ago it was so I can narrow the search down?

Quaagars · 16/03/2021 15:16

The only 'right kind' if Feminist is one who centres Women/Girls, that's it, it's that basic

Here you go - fixed your sentence for you

The only 'right kind' if Feminist is one who "centres the right type" of Women/Girls, that's it, it's that basic.

You're on Black Mumsnetters board.
Telling people there's only one right way to be a feminist.
Wanting to "discuss whether it's racism that drives some of the hate towards MM". hmm]
(I'm assuming you're not black because of the way you're taking such offence at white feminism being discussed!)
On a thread that is discussing lived black feminist experiences, you're taking offence at people for doing so, basically doing a "how very dare you!" and trying to make it all about you.
You seriously can't see a problem with that?

Quaagars · 16/03/2021 15:18

Fixed your sentence for you being what you and the majority of FWR mean just for clarity.