For not wanting a sliver of pain during childbirth (support for stillbirth)

[karmathreefold]

and then wanting extreme agony as punishment?

It's my fault... I knew the baby wasn't as active as usual, yet I thought it was OK.

I had a friend who had a stillbirth & she told me to check out any reduced movements - which I did, for my son, DD & in this pregnancy.

But I fucking didn't on tuesday, and I waited till the evening, when I knew it should be more active till I went to hospital.

So now I have to give birth to it. It's fully formed at 37 weeks gestation. If I'd got to hospital on time it could have maybe been saved.

I don't want to feel pain giving birth; yet I feel I deserve it, why not after it's all my fault.

I've never felt such pain as I do no, so maybe even a drugs-free labour would be less painful.

Oh god, I don't want this pain, I can't stand it

tami, I don't think that considering alternate universes is necessarily a sign that you are losing touch with reality, after all, physicists have been exploring the idea for the better part of the last century and most of them are reasonably in touch with reality. I have also thought that maybe there are millions of universes all expanding from the same original point in time and space and that maybe in some of them I have no children at all, in some Sylvie-Rose is still living and in others she and I both died on the day she was born, or I died and dh was left with the four boys and Sylvie-Rose.

To me, losing touch with reality would mean that I concentrate too much on the other possible worlds and forget about the one I inhabit. But you have ds and dd1 and I have my four boys and we have to stay somewhat grounded.

I think Random's idea of writing things down is possibly a good one. You don't have to keep it or share it but it might serve as a release.

Btw don't think for a minute that you are doing any less well than the rest of us. You have shown remarkable strength, especially bringing dd1 to the toddler groups. Trust me, we all have our black days.

Thank you chip xx

tamisara very early on after Mia died, I also had a discussion with my father about alternative universes. Just like you and Chip. As she says, apparently they are definitely possible. It made me feel a tiny bit happier that Mia and I might be together in a parallel universe somewhere, in some other place in time. Yet I am here too, and this is where I must concentrate my efforts - I cannot influence another world.

I also agree about random's suggestion for your early morning energy bursts. You write very well about your feelings - honest and raw - and if it can help to record them, then you should. Even the act of destroying them could be cathartic. It is certainly better to channel your anger like this than hurting yourself. None of us want that for you...

And yep, you are sounding different from the first days I found you here. In a good way. Even if good days might still feel rare for you. I think you have a lot more strength within you than you might think.

Hi can I join?

You are more than welcome to join xx

How are things this eve Tamisara?

Lumpsumps see you on here again?

I am here just on the other thread at the moment

Random Better today, thanks xx

lumps It sounds cliched, and I didn't believe anyone who said it, but it does get easier. I still have shitty days, really awful ones. But I don't fear them if that makes sense? No one can wave a magic wand, but whereas I used to fear each day, I don't so much now. Nothing can be worse than actually losing Tamsin, and losing Alice was the worst day for you xx

How was today, it is good to read that you do recognise that you have better days as well as shitty ones. Life is painful and hard for so many people

tami you've come a long way, hope you feel proud of yourself. x

for you, tami, you really have come so far, and you have done it all through your own strength.

Random Ain't that the truth? I've kind of detached myself in a way, that way it's much easier, at times it's like it happened to someone else, and not really to me. I found it easy to visit her grave thinking like that.

I've added some photos of DD1 at her grave, onto my profile. I'd love to have all three of my children with me on Sunday.

chip & miasmummy without you (and everyone else, including Random & GRW, who've written on this thread), and the ladies on the bereaved parents thread, I don't think I would have come this far. You're all beyond amazing. Chip & Miasmummy, you have both had me in awe at your courage & dignity. We started this journey around the same time xx

What a lovely rainbow for Tamsin's grave I hadn't seen that photo before, in your heart all 3 of your dc are with you always x

Thank you, and like the other bereaved mums you have shown great courage too. The support you offer to others is appreciated I'm sure. Thinking of you on Sunday x

Thank you. Credit where it's due, DH chose the flowers. It was horrible trawling through florists generic displays. I really wanted a name one, but not only were they prohibitively expensive, and too 'grown-up', the florist also said they'd drown her little coffin. So DH came up with using her middle name Rainbow, with her name in foil in the middle.

I've written this on the bereaved parents thread, but I'm going to repeat it here, as it's truly upset me.

At my 6 week consultant appointment, the consultant dismissed the views of the surgeon, that the true knot in Tamsin's cord, could have been a factor in her death (it was also around her neck twice).

I did, however, test positive to lupus anticoagulant. She was confident that this was the cause, and tallied with her apparent low birthweight (5lb 5oz at just under 37 weeks). She told me if (not very likely) I was to get pregnant again, I'd have to take low dose aspirin, and also heparin injections, depending on the results of the repeat test.

I've had the results of the repeat test, and it's negative. This has saddened me, as I have no idea what the hell it means. The letter says "we are pleased to inform you"??? But it was positive at the time. Does that mean the first test was a mistake? Or that it was positive, but didn't kill her.

I wish it'd been positive, as I thought it was the reason. Now I'm thrown back to darkness, and wondering if it was my actions at fault.

www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2657939451815.2157465.1355757007&type=3

I've gone back on facebook, this is Tamsin's album, there are also some photos I took at the cemetery the other day, which are also public, under my photos, if anyone wants to see (it takes so long to upload them here)

tami how very confusing, and I can see why you are upset. The uncertainty is terrible, especially when you want to have a cause to Tamsin's death.

Hospital letters tell you the bare minimum, especially when it comes to tests, which have been outsourced and don't relate to the overall context of the situation. In your case, this certainly warrants a follow-up call with your consultant to ask for further explanations, given the change in your results. Perhaps their original dismissal of the true knot should now be reconsidered.

However, you should not feel guilty about Tamsin. If it had been lupus, then it is nothing that you could have prevented ; similarly, if it had been the knot, I cannot think how in any way you caused that either...

Wanting to know 'why' is very natural. You don't want it to happen again, and you want to have some control over your circumstances. We cannot understand how Mia managed to get a rare heart infection. But she did. I will never understand why our beautiful girls died, and I am reaching the conclusion that if I do understand why, then my world will become a darker, bleaker, more terrible place as it would mean that punishment and retribution are not random.

Life is unfair, as we know. But you cannot blame yourself about Tamsin.

I'm aware that there are other conditions that are not lupus but require you to take blood thining products when pregnant to prevent stillbirth. It could be that both factors - the cord and something imbalanced contributed to Tamsin dying.

Bad things happen to good people, no-one is immune to lifes tragedies and heartaches - nothing to do with your actions or choices. Be kind to yourself and take advantage of the "good" (ie less shitty than others) days x

Thank you. I've read a bit, and it can be that lupus is transient. I did have a petechial (sp) rash starting a week or so before she died - which is small pin-prick blisters under the skin (like the meningitis rash), and my midwife was so concerned she arranged a Dr's visit, who ordered blood tests (not for lupus), and it showed very high ESR levels. As they can be raised in pregnancy they weren't too concerned. I agree with you random I think that the rash indicated a problem, which may have been fine, but if the blood was sticky, it may have been harder to get through the narrowed cord. Along with the fall the week before (which made me bleed). So many possibilities.

Thanks for your kind words of support xx

Tami, it is so hard, isn't it? Our official diagnosis for Sylvie-Rose is SIDS which really tells us precisely nothing as no-one know what causes SIDS. They could only tell me what she didn't die of, and in a way, I had already known she didn't die of those things. I knew she had no genetic abnormalities, or serious infections and up until the morning she died, she was one of the NICU "stars", the baby who flew through the system which no real issues.

I think you need a cause because, if, God willing, you were to get pg again you would want to feel that you could prevent it happening again. But sometimes there is no obvious cause. I think stillbirth and SIDS can both be like that, that no-one can give you a proper answer.

chip it would have to be God willing, as going by life right now, it'll be a virgin (OK virgin reborn) birth!

I've been pretty up, even though events right now are threatening to topple me.

Sunday was hideous. I never posted this on the bereavement thread, as I didn't want to say anything in front of other, grieving parents.

We planned to go to see Tamsin. Then DH didn't get up till 12pm. Then DD1 went to sleep. SS rang up, and told his dad that he'd got through the selection process to join the army, and was now going to training. This brought DH's mood down.

DH went out to Tesco, for tobacco (3.30pm), and I was upset, as I thought (mistakenly) that the cemetery shut at 4pm (it did last month). He didn't get why I was upset; there was an 'altercation', and he told me that I'm selfish - that he's found out his son could be dead this time next year, and I'm only concerned with myself, that I exist in 'sarah' world. I was beyond upset, of course I don't want anything to happen to SS, but to blame me for being upset, on Mother's Day - when my DD is dead, instead of consoling him... maybe I really am a selfish bitch. I was angry that he didn't care about Tamsin being dead, more concerned in case his son died, I am horrible.

FTR we have been getting on better - as we just ignore each other now. He's allowed me back on here, as I persuaded him (in front of CPN), but still won't allow facebook, so I do that on the phone, or when next-door are home.

Now my sister has brought me down. I posted last year (different name), about her. When I was pregnant with DS, she dressed in her undies, and asked DS's dad if he thought she looked sexy in them. She used to come out in front of my parents friends, in undies, much to the chagrin of the wives.

I've always been worried with my men around her, due to her behaviour. Well, last summer at DD1's party I thought he was following her, and sat crying with my friend trying to rationalise with me.

Today she phoned me up to tell me that she wants to look at a house in Cornwall (she's getting divorced); then she asked for DS's grandparents number, to stay with them. I'm beyond furious. DS's dad tried to rape me when DS was 12, and tried to kill us. DS had to give evidence, and DS's dad went to prison. He does have schizophrenia, so I've always felt guilty that he was jailed, instead of getting help. DS didn't see him again until he was 18.

So for my Dsis to phone them, to stay there, knowing how the grandparents cut me off (understandably)... I'm shocked beyond words. I'm annoyed that she wants mum & dad to move down with her, leaving me alone here.

Please talk some sense into me - tell me I'm an unreasonable, selfish mare!

tami you are not unreasonably nor selfish!!

I am so sorry that Sunday was horrible for you too. Then again, as you pointed out to me, it is probably unrealistic to expect the day to be easy... I would like to hope that your H was lashing out in fear more than anything, but still pretty damn insensitive of him to say those things - and you have already spoken about his emotional cruelty to you.

"Allowed" on the internet? Do remember, he is not your keeper. You have just much right to access the internet as anybody else.

Your DSis doesn't seem to respect social boundaries, that's for sure. Frankly, to ring up your DS's grandparents to ask to stay with them, despite the family history, reflects more on her insensitivity than anything else. But if you no longer have any contact with them, then I would suggest that you try not to worry about it all. Or is there more that I am not understanding?

I have to agree with Mia

Your h should have been supportive of you on Sunday in turn you would probably have been able to be more supportive of how he feels about SS joining the army.

Your DSis quite frankly has major issues - it's her, not you!

Jeez, Tami, with a sister like that, who needs a nemesis, eh? My dsis is a bit unsupportive and a bit distant but she is a lot more sensitive than yours! Just ignore her.

With your dh, well, none of us want our ds's to join the army but he is being a bit melodramatic about ss possibly being dead in a year. When I read that, I had to read back over it as I thought your ss must be ill but in all likelihood, in a year, he'll still be in training. Your dh needs to be be there for you, otherwise how can he expect you to hold his hand at this time and be there for him?

Thanks lovely ladies. I actually felt like kicking myself a while after posting, it seemed such a self-indulgent post... I do (at times) post the most trivial things to others, that take up far too much head room in my mind.

I do feel a bit bad about SS, as I don't think my problems have ever been with him, tbh. He came up with the idea of joining a year ago, and has got through all the selection process (he was on the border of the first fitness), and is now going for initial training, I'm pretty sure he can still leave after that.

chip You know when DH said it to me, he said those exact words "my son could be dead in a year", and although I knew about the army, I did ask him why. It did seem a bizarre way of phrasing it. Stupid timing I agree; I know he's worried, but I was sooo upset on Sunday, and he accused me of being selfish - which is what upset me I think

Right I'm back to rant a bit more. I swore I wouldn't again, and have been feeling so much more 'up' (probably helped by taking a couple of Epilim tablets I found in a drawer).

Dsis has p**sed me off again. She phoned me to tell me that she's stabbed herself in the arm, because my mum upset her.

It's to do with this house she wants to look at in Cornwall. My mum has (wisely) suggested she wait until she gets a settlement from her divorce (they're still living in the same house, until a settlement is agreed), before travelling 300 miles, falling in love, then not being able to afford it. My sister has no idea how much she'll get, but she reckons £100.000, plus he will pay so much per month.

Anyway, she was ranting & crying, saying that she wanted my parents to taker her down tomorrow (my mum had agreed to look after DD1, as we've had threatre tickets for ages), and her car won't drive that far, blah, blah, blah!

She then said that her son will end up more f*cked up than my DS if she doesn't move away soon. This really hurt me. My DS did go off the rails, mostly last year, but is pulling himself back together. DS never got over the trauma of what his dad did, & neither had I tbh. So to say that, and how she wants to 'protect' him, just riled me.

She also then said she needs to move away from this area, as it has bad memories, and with the awful life she has, and the awful year last year, it's understandable! Is it? I'm sorry, but to say that to me??? I didn't say anything, but she doesn't know what real pain is, she really hasn't cried a real tear.

The worst bit is - she wants mum & dad to sell up & go with her. If they sell their property, and put it to hers, then she can afford a bigger place. I'm so upset at this. I have no idea what way my life is turning, but am worried about this. I'm not selfish enough to voice this, after all I want my parents to be happy, but I do feel a dread, at them being so far away. And no - I can't afford to go with them. My Dsis has always looked down on me, for living in a council house with DS, now we live in a rented place... I didn't marry for money like her.

miasmummy There is no backstory as such. I'm just annoyed that she would consider going there, knowing that these people cut me out of their life, and knowing that DS's dad will be there. I don't think I could bear to speak to her again after, it's loyalty I guess.