My 5y old DS bullies me

[WomanScorned]

Of course, he's lovely, sweet, funny and kind much of the time.
But if I don't instantly obey him, or if I thwart him in any way, he hits, kicks, headbutts me, and has recently begun 'snotting' at me, ie, forcing snot out at me.
He controls the stereo, the DVD player,the lights. Everything.
It's pretty clear I've confused 'gentle' parenting with permissive parenting, somewhere along the line. But what the heck do I do about it.
He is an only child, mum and dad have never lived together, but are mostly friendly.
He does not do any of this at school. He is described as very able, sociable and popular.
His dad has an older son who was excluded from mainstream education at a very young age, and I'm so afraid of the consequences of my son takes his home behaviour in to school. He frequently refuses to get dressed or to leave the house, as he doesn't want to go. School are supportive, but don't know the extent of it, as they haven't witnessed it.
My ex is loud and aggressive, but DS hasn't witnessed any DV. His dad's place is a very male environment and life revolves around tv, electronics and eating sweets and crap, but DS only goes there about once a month - his dad usually takes him to visit family for one afternoon a week.They are very competitive, as is my son - everything from getting dressed to going up stairs is a race.
He's very likeable most of the time. I have, for his sake, to show him that this violence is not ok, but I have to physically restrain him, push him away when he is hitting me and we both get hurt.
Thanx for any help.

Thank you Crabby - I think I needed the harshness as well as the niceness :)

I'm not sure I handled last night perfectly. I still slept in his room, as I don't actually have a bed in mine (I swapped it for twin beds, when we moved, in the hope that it would become his spare, for sleepovers, but his dad broke it, bouncing on it with both boys :/) I will put the mattress in there today, though, for now.
Anyway, he asked for 'milky' at about 1 and I said "we don't have milk in the night now", which I'd already made clear and gave him water, tucked him back in. He actually accepted that, but when he asked again at 4.30am, I said 10 seconds each side. I thought that giving it on my terms was better than a fight at that time. But then, he didn't want to get back in his own bed, so I left him on my mattress and slept in his bed until 6.30.
I usually have problems getting him up - too tired, legs don't work and so on. He just wants to have milk, doze, milk, doze, and 'kicks off' if I try to get up, or (pathetically, I know) unlatch him and sneak off, like you might with a 6m old (I would insert an embarrassed face, here, if I knew how!)
However, we were up and having breakfast a good hour earlier than usual.

What could I have done better?

He was well rested and happy this morning. I got him a Lego alarm clock, which beeps at 'time to get dressed'. He ran upstairs to switch it off, then suggested doing everything he needed to be upstairs for there and then - face and teeth etc, rather than constantly running away, hiding, wanting to get toys out, like he usually does. I praised his 'good idea' and reiterated that the sooner he was dressed, the more time he would have for Lego before school.

A mum from school, who had noticed I was having problems getting there has offered to knock for us on the way. He knows he needs to be ready on time if he wants to walk with his friend. They ran in to school together this morning.

He has earned 15 minutes on my phone after school - a special, (as in, free!), game I put on it for him.

I cannot believe how well this is going!

Having said that, I still feel a bit as if I'm walking on egg shells around him, and am expecting some resistance at bedtime, when he realises I will be leaving his room when he is asleep. We've tapped 'messages' to each other through the wall to try to show him that I am still only a few feet away from him, but that we just can't see each other.

I wrote and re-wrote my original post so many times over the past year, without posting it. I can't thank everyone enough for all the help I've had with this. :)

You are amazing. Well done. Actually, you are both amazing. So pleased for you.

I am so impressed with what you have accomplished. Of course it is a marathon and not a sprint so do not take the following as anything but encouragement: I think it is important to stick absolutely to any new rule you set. So if it is 'no milk at night' then you need to stay strong and not give in. I know it is hard to face a tantrum or hitting or anger especially at 4am, but you will eventually get to a point where he will not bother challenging rules that he knows you won't shift on. It will be a slog but it is so worth getting there! He will push back against your new rules but you have to stand firm. i love that you are seeing some better behaviour already. But just know that even a poor reaction to your rules may be a sign of progress.

Sounds brilliant :) Well done. And yes, you will feel nervous at first - that's OK. You'll get more into the swing of things.

On "What could you have done better" - I would say to just have the fight at 4.30 - that old fear of conflict snuck in there and it shouldn't have. (But it's early days, so I'm not going to judge you for it! Yes you will be tired and yet it might force you to get up for the day, but that is short term - you need to be thinking more long term. Have those battles, especially when you don't want to. Think of it as practice. New approaches are all well and good but the crunch point, the really really important part is how you deal with it when there is a conflict. You can't avoid all conflict ever, so it's about learning to manage it in a healthy and constructive way. If you have only ever experienced conflict in an abusive situation, this is hard. Your experience tells you that it's going to be scary, dangerous, violent, and again scary. You might also be frightened that you will become the aggressor yourself, that anger has some special power. (It doesn't). Just the thought of conflict probably provokes an anxiety response - lightheadedness, rapid breathing, clenching fists, wanting to sit all curled up with your legs to your chest, a slight ringing in the ears. That is hard to get away from because it's so physical. CBT or other counselling (but make sure it's specialised) will help with that, which is why people are recommending to prioritise it. If you needed to go into hospital to have an operation, you'd have to sort out childcare, please don't think this is less important than that would be. Basically you need to reprogram your expectations. Conflict can be a positive thing. It can get you things that you want. It can help your feelings to be heard. It can bring forth new resolutions, and it can clear the air. It does not have to hurt anybody, it does not have to be frightening, it does not have to be loud or angry. It is just a normal part of communication.

And, you know, you don't know that he would have fought anyway. He might have accepted it like he did at one. But overall, I think your night went very well, it will be much better when you move into the other room, and you got up an hour early! How is that not a win? :)

My only other thought is that I would try to move towards leaving him a cup of water in his room, so that he already has a drink if he wants it, because it removes his reason to wake you up then. Of course, I expect he will wake up for a little while. But I don't think it will take too long once he gets the message.

I really like the fact he walks with the other child, DS used to love that too and it's a great motivator.

There is a long running support thread on here - the Virtual Village the current one is called (you would be v welcome although def keep this thread too!) and we have a saying on there that we try to say when a situation is stressing us out with DC. The mantra to repeat is "This is not an emergency." It helps to calm down and reassess a situation when you feel yourself going into panic mode.

Well, you seem to have done a very good job all round. One small thing, if your DS is a bit spectrummy then it may be quite important for you to stay consistent. My DS found it scary when I changed my mind over something, even if it was giving him something he wanted! So despite the risk of a big meltdown it still might have been worth sticking to the "no milk at night" rule. Kids often like to check on how we work - "Does Mum mean what she said? Does she still mean it three hours later? Does she still mean it even if I cry or shout or hit?" - but often once they've figured out how we work they're quite satisfied.

Feeling like walking on eggshells is natural for a while. You are working out a new way of doing things, you are still figuring out what works for you and your DS and what doesn't. It's OK to make some mistakes, or simply to try some things and find they don't go the way you hope. Neither you nor your DS will be harmed by it. It's early days and you have come a long way in a very short time.

Agree with others, you backed off at 4.30 even though he hadn't caused any trouble the first time you said no. Just the breath of a possibility of conflict, really. You'll have to be totally consistent if you want him to pick things up quickly. Otherwise he'll try to learn the new pattern (e.g. mummy says no but means yes if it's the second time I ask/it's past 4am/she's tired) and it'll be difficult to sort it out.

I guess my reasoning was that he'd already slept for far longer than usual, so 'deserved' milk.

Anyway, tonight he has water in a sports bottle, so that he can manage it half awake, without spilling it. He has spilled drinks in his bed before and so had to come in with me...

We went to the park straight from school, so DS was shattered when we got home. A neighbour wanted to speak to me on the way in, often the catalyst for attention seeking/aggression. Not the neighbour, anyone speaking to me. So, he was crying and begging for food in the passage, while we had a quick word in the doorway. And things went downhill from there. I offered 2 biscuits, he wanted 5. He ignored me and got more from the cupboard. I took them away, they ended up smashed. So went without - usually I would have let him have more. He hit me, I reminded him, no hitting, he bellowed and kicked and spat, so I put him in the back porch, cue much door kicking and shouting. He is not abandoned, btw, he can see me. 3 times he came in, but then tried to force me to change my mind about the biscuits, then he wanted to eat on the sofa. He eventually calmed down and ate dinner nicely, at the table. I think I was calm and consistent, even though I was thinking "does it really matter, he's already trashed the sofa anyway". He responded well to 'last orders from the kitchen", came upstairs when asked and has settled down. He knows where his water is, and that he doesn't need to wake me for it.

I felt that I was saying no to biscuits, milk, eating on the sofa with a film on, for the he'll of it, though. Like Supernanny trying to break him, to win, when I could have avoided the issue. After all, he was hungry, so could have had 5 biscuits and would probably still have eaten his dinner.But, otoh, these were small conflicts and I managed to stay calm and didn't get upset. Sort of a trial run for bigger ones!

Sorry for the boring details, btw. I'm just keen to hear where I could have done better/differently.

He is sleeping peacefully, now, and doesn't appear too traumatised :)

Wow, I'm so impressed with you both.

As I read your posts it almost sounds like DS was being apbabified due to his behaviour so acted like a baby. Now your talking to him maturely, giving him instructions but with an element of choice (these are the jobs how are we going to finish them - he decided to do upstairs jobs all at once) he's responding in a mature manner.

Great idea about the friend.

I'm totally pro EBF but don't think there's anything wrong with saying your at school now, big boys have milk in a cup like you have water in a cup. He may accept it stopping full stop, no just 10 seconds if he thinks it's because its a positive thing related to him being a big boy now iyswim?

X posts. Definitely you did good girl

Make him wait until appropriate to ask.
Offer him a suitable solution to his problem.
Stop him taking the piss! (And no 5 biscuits isn't ok for a 5 yo )
He's learnt accept what your offered or go without.
He's learned trashing stuff will not get what he wants.
He's learned his behaviour will not gain attention from you (negative attention is as good as positive at this age)
He's learned life will carry on despite his behavior. And he'd have gotten the biscuits if he'd just behaved himself!

In short he's learnt who's in charge and no amount of violence and bullying is going to result in a positive outcome for him. Remember when you want to cave these skills your teaching him will help him in the wider world as well as at home.

I know a 9yo like this (who got what she wanted with behaviour like your DS) who cannot understand why shouting, screaming and stamping her feet causes her classmates to exclude her rather than sing to her tune.

Just bare in mind along side all these stances you need to model and teach him the appropriate way to get what he wants! My DS is a rule based learner and is actually a very well behaved little boy - but too passive and well behaved because he doesn't have a clue what is and isn't ok without being taught!

We need to combine them and meet in the middle woman!

It is not going to be easy. You are not saying no for the hell of it. You are gently letting him know that some behaviour is unacceptable and that you are in charge. Give yourself permission to say no. You gave him 2 biscuits. 5 is too many. He is testing you. Yy to taking a snack with you to the school gates. Don't dwell on the negatives. It has been a good day.

You are not saying no for the hell of it. You are saying no for a good reason in all cases. No to 5 biscuits because it is a lot of sugar before tea. No to eating on the sofa because you don't want crumbs in the sofa. Etc.

It is really hard when you are in the middle of all these demands to know which rules you want to enforce and why. I would say that in the situation this afternoon, the rule I would want to focus on is Do not interrupt rudely when mummy is speaking to someone. You must wait quietly, and in return I promise to speak to you as soon as I can. He needs to know he will get nothing he asks for if it is asked for with demanding and begging and being rude.

And it is not 2 biscuits or 5, but sticking to what you say. If you say 2 biscuits and no more, then that is that. But if you say two first and we'll see, and he has 2 and comes back to ask politely for more, you might consider that.

It is a series of tough calls but look how well you did!! And as you say he is just fine, happily sleeping. Good work.

Thanks.
I really hated seeing his tear stained face, tho. And I'm quite concerned about him hurting his feet kicking doors.

He had a snack at the park, so I think it was more about me speaking to someone other than him.

I was happy enough to let him have the 10 seconds each side earlier, as there'd been no 'fighting' prior to that, but he refused to stop at 10, so I got up and he was v. upset, as "his routine is to have both". He has a few self imposed routines/rituals, but I think that's quite normal.

He will be upset because he's realising things aren't always going to go his way now - but that's fine - your doing it for him.

Hopefully if you keep reminding yourself this new way is for his benefit you'll find it easy to stick to because you did the old way for his benefit.

He'll thank you for it one day!

I can see why you felt you were saying no a lot but really, everything you said no to was reasonable and perfectly right. It wasn't for the sake of it at all. I know the kind of supernanny scene you mean and they make me cringe too but I don't think it's the same thing at all.

Often they do escalate things by reacting to an initial no and then expect to keep pushing it. The secret is to keep calm and try to respond only to their reactions which need a response, if that makes sense.

You need to decide what the boundary is, and you did, you upheld several boundaries well there :)

1. Acceptable amount of biscuits, or "Mum decides" or the fact he has to ask, not help himself to food. I think from your post, he still got the original 2 which is fine IMO - he did not get the extra ones - good. That was the important thing.
2. Violence is not tolerated. Perfectly handled.
3. Dinner is eaten at the table. Yes, BTW, it did really matter - when you catch yourself thinking "Does it really matter?" remember that you are naturally permissive and don't need to try and be more laid back - if you're thinking that, then it probably has gone too far already. You don't tend to naturally jump to being too harsh, so if you're wavering between two options, go with the stricter one. You can always go back and relax a rule with an explanation. It's much harder to convince him that the rule is important, if you decide it is later, when you've already let him do it once or a few times.

So this one in this case mattered because:

• Even if the sofa is already wrecked, there is no sense in wrecking it more.
• If you get a new sofa/he sits on a friend's sofa, you'd want him to respect it and keep it clean. So it's useful for him to understand that we don't eat on sofas. (Oh and another thing it took me far too long to realise: You can't make exceptions until you have established a rule. And that doesn't mean doing it 5 times. It means doing it at least 20 or 30 times "correctly" between each exception.)

Saying no for the sake of it would be things like, denying him a bedtime story because you were really really bored of reading the same book, insisting that he only drank water with dinner when he usually has juice just for the sake of it, taking one of his toys off him because "You're not allowed to play with that now" with no basis in reason at all.

Do you see? I know that it's hard to suddenly feel like you're saying no all the time, but firstly a lot of interaction with 3-5 year olds does (depressingly!) involve saying no, you do get desensitised to it, and secondly, I think he is going to test those boundaries a lot when you first put them into place, so you'll find that you feel like it's constant at first but it should peter out and become less constant. If you actually think about it, you only had to say no three times and they were all for good reason. Not about breaking him or a power struggle.

If it bothers you a lot as well, remember you can always frame a "no" a bit differently. So e.g. for the biscuits, you can say "Hmm, only two now, but you can have one more after dinner if you like" (what How To Talk... calls a "delayed yes".) For the sofa you can frame the language about reminding him of what you do want so just say "We eat dinner at the table". For violence you can say "I won't let you hurt me". As long as it is clear - that's the important thing. Of course if he's asking outright "Can I..?" and the answer is no, then you say no, but it's not a bad word as such, just an answer to a question.

You are not making rules for the hell of it, nor breaking him to win. Even if it feels that way! Recognise that you are a wise Mum making sensible rules for a five year old boy. Of course if something about eating at the table was truly horrible for him then you would let him eat on the sofa. But he can eat comfortably at the table without the telly, and that's a good habit to form. It's not about winning or losing. You are the Mum and he is developing the sense that he can trust you to know what's best, and that you are confident and willing to stand up for what's best for him; and that you will give him the choices that are right for his age.

And as Polter says, you can create your rules and adapt according to his needs. Food when he's hungry doesn't have to mean he can have as many biscuits as he demands. Little kids don't understand nutrition, they only know biscuits taste nice. (My Mum was a great believer in "you can have two biscuits and if you're still hungry then you can have some plain bread and butter". That was a good way to spot genuine hunger!)

You are doing really well.

I think you have excellent reasons for saying no so don't doubt yourself. He is going to test you as he is used to getting his own way!! There is of course time to pick your battles but I think until his behaviour is consistently better you are going to have so be fairly strict and consistent.

I think you need to have the conversation with him re stopping the bfing, even if not straight away just to start planning that it will stop soon and that he can drink milk from a cup if he wants to iyswim.

Are you going to get yourself a bed now then? I hope so!

I think as well you sound like you have had a few issues with accepting that he is 5yo now and not a baby, I think most mums struggle with this from time to time tbf. How independent is he? Can he get himself dressed, pick his own cereal and put his own milk on it? Help you around the home with a few small jobs?

He won't hurt himself by kicking a door. They really are surprisingly bouncy at that age! Of course if the door is glass it might not be safe - if so I would find another room. (Just because you mentioned he could see you). And better he kicks a door than kicks you. You could perhaps get some big bean bags or large heavy cushions for him to beat up a bit when he feels stressed rather than hard furnishings. But honestly, if he was hurting himself he would actually stop, because he's doing it more for your benefit than his.

It is hard to see them upset even if you know that you had to upset them. When he's calm (or sad crying rather than angry crying) wipe his face and give him a cuddle and be amazed how quickly it turns to happy. And remember crying can be cathartic and good, too!

Another here a fan of visuals and laminated charts with Velcro! It's surprising how much rewarding himself for completing things appeals to my DS! He couldn't give a shit if anyone else does it! What's your DS motivator? That's always a good starting point. You mentioned the phone? Could he earn time on that by completing certain tasks? I agree starting with a clear doing x gets you 1 reward would be a good start and then spontaneously add reward (if he responds to it) for doing what you've asked without reminding.

I also agree with negotiating. What are you happy to negotiate over? Model how to do this. I've modelled using humour before. Very much like using distraction.

What do you mean by self imposed routines? Please explain. What sort of routines?

Secondly you don't need to say no constantly. You can phrase directions/answers so they are positive. Ie) yes you can have a biscuit after tea. Yes let's sit at the table to have tea and you can choose a nice film to watch after,

I do agree on the negotiating, but I feel that the boundaries need to be quite strong and that OP needs to work (for herself :)) on being able to stick to something before bringing in too many other possibilities and skills such as negotiation, especially when there is a chance she feels she might be negotiated back past her original agreement. I know that when I tried the idea of meeting DS halfway when he was younger he used to go into even worse meltdown, or start asking for even more! It would go like this: 2. 5? No, 2. 5! How about 3? No, 6! Nope. 2 or 3. 7! etc etc until it was just a mess.

Although now on re-reading, I'm seeing that you're not actually suggesting that, but that if he takes the initiative and asks for one less, then you could meet halfway, which seems easier as a rule to stick to than I originally thought. As OP is already finding it hard to stick to yes/no (again I am not judging, I know this is really hard to learn) I feel like any new additions need to be really clear with set criteria, at least until you find your feet :)

He's fiercely independent, esp. re self- care. He dresses himself, ties his laces, does zips, buttons etc. He makes toast, sandwiches, scrambles eggs, chops vegetables. In fact, these things often start the fallout. Eg, he wants an omelette, but is playing, so I start it, he hears me and runs in the kitchen crying "I wanted to do the eggs/grate the cheese" etc. He rams me in the legs with his kitchen step in his haste to get at, say, the bread before me, grabs at the butter. He usually prepares food alongside me, but the desperation to be first is dangerous. Plus, the contrariness gets me down. I'll get 3 carrots out, he' ok want 3 different ones. I'll give him a biscuit, he'll insist he wants the identical one, third down the pack. It's wearing! He does sweep, mop, hoover, but sometimes I just want to do it myself. Properly.

We do actually have a lot of fun, even though it doesn't look like it, from this thread. He loves nonsense and silliness and wordplay.

I think he would like the visual aids - rewarding himself for completing a task. One of the problems with the sticker chart we did was that he then made charts for me and his dad and an alternative one for himself, where he awarded himself 'bonuses', cut from magazines and sellotaped on!