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My 5y old DS bullies me

210 replies

WomanScorned · 02/03/2015 12:14

Of course, he's lovely, sweet, funny and kind much of the time.
But if I don't instantly obey him, or if I thwart him in any way, he hits, kicks, headbutts me, and has recently begun 'snotting' at me, ie, forcing snot out at me.
He controls the stereo, the DVD player,the lights. Everything.
It's pretty clear I've confused 'gentle' parenting with permissive parenting, somewhere along the line. But what the heck do I do about it.
He is an only child, mum and dad have never lived together, but are mostly friendly.
He does not do any of this at school. He is described as very able, sociable and popular.
His dad has an older son who was excluded from mainstream education at a very young age, and I'm so afraid of the consequences of my son takes his home behaviour in to school. He frequently refuses to get dressed or to leave the house, as he doesn't want to go. School are supportive, but don't know the extent of it, as they haven't witnessed it.
My ex is loud and aggressive, but DS hasn't witnessed any DV. His dad's place is a very male environment and life revolves around tv, electronics and eating sweets and crap, but DS only goes there about once a month - his dad usually takes him to visit family for one afternoon a week.They are very competitive, as is my son - everything from getting dressed to going up stairs is a race.
He's very likeable most of the time. I have, for his sake, to show him that this violence is not ok, but I have to physically restrain him, push him away when he is hitting me and we both get hurt.
Thanx for any help.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 02/03/2015 18:43

I think the fact that he's only like it when I'm around is significant. If it were SN, would he be able to switch it on and off?

Yes! Actually this can be a particular factor. It could be that he is struggling so much to keep up the expected behaviour in other settings, and he feels safe with you so it's all coming out. In fact, the fact that he can "turn it on and off" as you say is a good sign. (And it's not really conscious.) It means that he does, in fact, understand that he is not the top of the pile and points to him probably feeling scared or overwhelmed. Have you ever had an awful, stressful day at work, held it together around everyone for the sake of professionalism, and then come home and had a massive argument with your partner or cried buckets at the slightest provocation? That is what life is like for a child with undiagnosed additional needs, every single day. Some of them are better at holding it together than others, the ones who spill over in every environment tend to get diagnosed quicker, but just because he is only displaying adverse behaviour in one setting does not mean that there is nothing there. As I said, it might not be anything like that, but don't rule it out either. It is worth looking at all possibilities, not closing off avenues which might be helpful because you feel it couldn't fit. And additionally, even if he doesn't have a particular condition but is showing some behaviours similar to it, it might be that techniques which are designed for children with that condition are helpful for those behaviours regardless. So it's not a total waste of time even if you find nothing.

Aww, NotSo, I think that was me Blush Thanks!

I do think that you don't have to cut out the breastfeeding if you don't feel ready to do this - but don't be fooled. At five, it is not the only way he can gain comfort. I fed my DS until he self weaned at four, so I know a bit about feeding older children and it's just not the same thing at all as feeding a toddler or younger child.

When he is calm, sit with him and tell him that when he is hitting you and shouting at you and hurting you, it makes you not want to let him have milk. Have a general talk about boundaries, perhaps you can think of a time when somebody overrode his boundaries and he didn't like that and talk about it. (Could be another child at school, an adult playing tickling/rough games which went too far, anything). Anyway once you've got this point across (or even if not, TBH) ask him to help you think of some other things which would help him calm down which aren't mama milk (or whatever is his word for it.) Yes you should try to help him calm down if you can since it's clear he's struggling to do that for himself. But no, you do not need to nurse him when you feel assaulted - it's not good for you and it's terrible for him because it's giving him a totally mixed message.

One thing I have really struggled with to get a handle on is to understand that it's OK to let them reach their last chance. Actually, it's so important because there does need to be a line. Just practice saying it: "You have lost your chance for mama milk now because you have hit me. We can try again tomorrow."

Viviennemary · 02/03/2015 18:47

I don't go for this gentle parenting lark. You have to show him whose boss. When DD was a bit older than your son I reminded her. Look here like it or not I'm the parent and you're the child. You have to take the lead or else he will be confused.

PolterGoose · 02/03/2015 18:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ghostinthecanvas · 02/03/2015 19:00

I get the impression that Womanscorned hasn't tried parenting. She has treated it as an equal relationship. Her son controls everything, makes the decisions, uses violence toward her. Not every tricky child has a syndrome. The op has been very honest about the way her home is run. Until she has a consistent routine and boundaries her ds will continue to struggle. SN or no SN.

NearlySchoolTime · 02/03/2015 19:04

OP, DH and I are just coming out of the other side of this (fingers crossed). DS is nearly six and for a year was pretty bad for violence. What worked for us (and I accept you may have tried this, and there may be other factors at play) was a really consistent sanction for violence - in our case, removal of computer games for a fixed time. It was a slog, and we're not out of the woods yet, but things are much better.

I also make a point of praising him if he gets angry or frustrated and doesn't lash out, so he knows we see the times he really has to try. I'm not pretending to be an expert, but that's what seems to be working for us.

It helped that the sanction didn't in itself involve anything physical, so we don't get into a wrestling match there and then when everyone is feeling at the end of their tether.

Viviennemary · 02/03/2015 19:10

Yes I agree. But I don't really agree with this modern reasoning. Why should I get dressed. Why should I eat my dinner and then go into an explanation as to why. Of course sometimes nothing does work. Except tearing hair out and yelling and then going round to friends for a whine and cup of tea.

sliceofsoup · 02/03/2015 19:27

I agree with ghost. I don't get the impression that the OP has tried all these things. Mainly because she seems very reluctant for her DS to feel any discomfort ever.

Sadly, sometimes parents have to be the bad guy, because only we can see the bigger picture.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 02/03/2015 19:36

I think something you have to realise OP is that it is OK for a 5 yo's immediate needs not to be met, if it is meeting a longer term need.

I suggest that your DS' need to learn self-control is stronger (or more important) than his need for immediate comfort.

And while I agree with others that nothing you have said has ruled out SNs, children with SNs need boundaries just as much as NT kids.

I think the explosive child is a very good place to start. Also don't go trying to change everything at once. You don't even need to stop feeding, but you do need to stop feeding on demand/in response to conflict.

Even saying 'no, you can't have milk for 5 minutes because you hit mummy' - then turn a timer on and wait 5 minutes. Or 2 or 3 if that seems too much. You have to teach him that he can't have everything he wants the very second he wants it.

Even when he's in a good mood, I'd do the delayed gratification thing actually.

BertieBotts · 02/03/2015 19:56

There is a lot of leeway with a NT child. Gentle/positive parenting does work because there are many blogs, books about it, courses, families practising it very happily. There is nothing inherently wrong with it. Likewise, the total opposite, strict authoritarian, rod of iron style parenting works. Many children grow up in this kind of environment with no lasting issues. Of course the vast majority of parents reside somewhere in the middle.

Just because you personally don't agree with an approach or wouldn't like to try it, doesn't mean it is wrong. There are always going to be children for whom a particular approach doesn't work (and that may be personality, not SN at all) or is having a harmful effect. But it doesn't mean that you have to zip right over to the other side of the spectrum, and it doesn't mean that the parenting technique caused the extreme behaviour. Unless we're talking severe neglect or abuse, parenting can cause a reaction which can be explosive or negative, but it doesn't cause lasting damage. Generally, there is not one right way which works for each child. Most children can cope with a wide range of different approaches, which is good, because most parents are not equipped to try every single approach ever. It just doesn't work like that.

Where SN comes into it is that the majority of things don't really work. That it doesn't really make a difference what you try. It is a myth that you have to try the entire spectrum of parenting to "be sure" that your child has some kind of issue outside of the norm. If they were NT then they would respond to most levels on the spectrum, even if their comfort point is a few shades away from the parent's natural point. They can reach a harmonic compromise relatively easily.

I do totally agree that OP would benefit from showing more assertive behaviour and not allowing herself to be a doormat, because it would both be a good example and also make things much clearer. But I don't agree that she has done nothing - it's just a point which is pretty far out on the parenting spectrum and does work for some families.

I am 90% sure every time I read something on PDA that DS probably has it. I don't like the idea of PDA, it irrationally irritates me in actual fact, but I have to admit that the descriptions are spot on and explain some totally baffling scenarios which are commonplace here. But it turns out that the way to manage it is almost all bits we've fallen into finding out ourselves that work, and I can credit gentle parenting almost entirely for that. We have occasionally strayed into harsh and/or punitive out of "WTAF do we do now?!" and only found that it makes things worse, so I am glad that I stuck to my guns and said that overly authoritative/punitive systems were not something that I was prepared to do. A token sanction, yes, (although we are doing the opposite currently which is working much better), lots of threats and warnings and struggles for power, no. I'm not in a rush to get DS assessed or diagnosed with anything, because at this point in time it doesn't seem like it would offer anything helpful, and we are managing OK on our own at this point.

BertieBotts · 02/03/2015 20:04

YYY to what Lonny said. Very well put.

Sometimes it does just need somebody to say "Hey. It's okay to do this. You're not a bad parent if he cries for five minutes." Do remember that when people are saying that it would be good to get more boundaries or be more assertive or let him see the results of his actions sometimes, they are not suggesting for a second that you start beating him or locking him in a cage or anything harsh at all. It's just about finding your place as a parent, which does sometimes involve trying out things which are outside of your comfort zone. Even if (to pluck a belief out of the air) you hate the idea of a child crying themselves to sleep, what are the likely long term effects if it happens once vs a sustained effort? Once, not so bad. And crying for a few minutes to let you gather your thoughts and your patience before you go in and act even less so.

Push past that comfort zone and that idea of what is "right" and you might find that your idea of "right" expands. And if it doesn't, you move on - it's not going to damage him, or your relationship. Everybody makes mistakes, it's life.

Crazyqueenofthecatladies · 02/03/2015 20:56

First up I extended bf both my children but I beg you to consider stopping feeding your son, between you you've managed to twist the most beautiful nurturing act of mothering into an abusive act of violence. He is old enough to remember this, and what his force of will gets him, Christ imagine being married to him in 20 years time. This has to stop, I'd tackle it first because it's likely to result in the pair of you getting some sleep, so you can regain your role as parent rather than slave, and his temper might improve. And at five he needs to learn other forms of comfort because no one should seek comfort out of someone else's misery... It's a twisted parody of why you began bfing five years ago.

base9 · 02/03/2015 21:14

You.must start parenting your child. I have a good friend in a very similar situation but her ds is a few years older than yours. Your parenting sounds very similar - no boundaries, giving in to violence and poor behaviour rather than confronting or correcting it, never giving him a food he does not want, so all he eats are fish fingers and Nutella sandwiches at 10 yo. It is a tragedy in action and he gets worse and more demanding, more violent and more possessive with each year. You must set boundaries about unacceptable behaviour and then follow through with consequences (no time on Xbox if he does not tidy his room, no pudding if he does not eat a sufficient amount of his tea, the loss of a toy for hitting/screaming/yelling). You do not 'comfort' him for being a good parent and setting sensible consequences for his actions and do not apologise for a consequence if it was proportionate and just. You do not need to become some horrible dictator! You need to be fair, firm and consistent. It will be a huge change for you so seek out all the help you can get.

girliefriend · 02/03/2015 21:14

I can't believe you are sleeping on his floor!!

I think you need to get a plan in place which involves you gaining some autonomy over your body and putting some boundaries in place. Starting with you sleeping in your own bed and having your evenings to yourself!! It sounds like the bfing is turning into something really horrible, it needs to stop.

I never found time out very effective as dd would become more and more wound up and it seemed to escalate the situation. However she did respond to having some toys confiscated or not being allowed to watch t.v.

You need to take charge and stop allowing your son to bully you. This situation will only get worse unless you change fundamentally your approach to parenting now.

Pomegranatemolasses · 02/03/2015 22:38

Have thought about you a lot today Op. Truly hope you will take on board some of the very good advice here.

Your life sounds hellish. And you are heading down a disastorous road with ds.

Things can and will get better. But all of that is down to you. What you describe is so far from the realms of normal, that it may seem baffling to some that you are actually putting up with this.

I do understand that you are now bedded down in this hideous parent/child dynamic. You can describe with great clarity just how much power your child has in the home. If it were me, I would be looking at techniques used in oppositional defiance disorder. Take from it what you think will help you.

I really feel for you.

BertieBotts · 03/03/2015 07:55

Oh yes, ODD techniques might well be useful. I don't know if this is still current thinking, but I watched a documentary from 2005 the other day and it mentioned that ODD is not a born disorder, it is a response to (in the case they were discussing) constant reprimands and criticism. The default response becomes to kick back even when it's not unfounded. So if the behaviour has come about because of inconsistency, it might help.

GooseyLoosey · 03/03/2015 08:22

Time out may not work for you - you need to work out what your child's currency is and deal in that.

When mine were younger it was time out for ds as he did not like to be away from where things were happening. For dd it was removing a toy until she behaved better. Time out never worked for her. Now they are older, it is computer time for ds and taking dd to activities and friends.

What makes your son tick?

I really would stop the breastfeeding. It does not sound like you enjoy it at all. I only fed mine when they were babies and I hated it. The feeling of liberation when I stopped was immense. It seems that you might feel the same way.

I think I would try the firm boundaries approach before you try alternatives. If you are honest, do you think with boundaries ds would behave better or do you think there is an underlying problem that would make this difficult? Be as honest as you can with yourself as it affects the way you should go forward from here.

Peony58890 · 03/03/2015 08:36

Time out worked excellently for my first two. Was useless for my third. Is he more emotionally and physically aware? Is he a sensitive child?

MildDrPepperAddiction · 03/03/2015 08:44

Crazyqueen is right. All you are teaching him is to be violent to get what he wants.

Reading your posts I can picture a violent, horribly abusive adult in the making.

Stop bf, stop sleeping in the floor and be the parent!

BertieBotts · 03/03/2015 09:00

Oh, also - another thing I have noticed or realised recently about gentle parenting.

IME very very few people fall naturally perfectly in the middle of authoritarian and permissive. Think about your typical internal reaction to minor irritations. Is your instinct to confront and control, or to ignore and avoid? Most people tend to fall down on one side of the coin or the other. Mine is to avoid. In the past I realise, I let a lot of things go because I was thinking "Oh, that's not really an issue yet. Hmm. Maybe it is. Oh, I don't want to deal with it right now. Maybe if I pretend not to notice he'll stop by himself. Oh, no he isn't. I'm going to have to do something. Ugggh. I don't want to. It's going to cause an argument. Maybe it can wait a little longer." It wasn't a particularly conscious thought process, and I would always have stepped in before something serious happened, but I can recognise that pattern happening now, and also recognise that stepping in at that crisis point is far too late. The boundary needs to be drawn earlier, where it wouldn't matter at all if he stopped there.

Think about a full bathtub (bear with me - I love metaphors). If you filled it right to the brim with you in it, you might feel pleased. Maximum water, no spillage. How clever I am. Except that every time you move, water dribbles and splashes over the edge. Every time, you feel irritated and confused. You did not overfill it, so why has it spilled? You can't even get out of the bath without creating a lot of mess which then has to be cleared up. By the time the bath is over, you feel more stressed than you did before.

Another person leaves three inches between the top of the bathwater and the rim of the bath. They can sit in the water quite happily, wash themselves, and get out without spilling a single drop. The only way they would get water on the floor would be to play or splash vigorously in the water.

The first bath didn't seem too full when you got in it. It was the perfect height not to spill, but it did spill. The second bath could have had more water in it without spilling, but the lack of extra water allowed the person to move around and wash easily without worrying about splashes.

It's the same kind of thing - if you have your boundaries right up at the edge, he's still going to push them, which means he's going to cross the edge which pushes your buttons and makes you react in ways you don't want to. You need to pull the boundaries back, so that even if he pushes a little, it really isn't going to be of any consequence to you. The mistake then is thinking that it doesn't need to be of consequence to him. That doesn't mean you need to be harsh but it does mean you need to be prepared to stop something before it becomes an issue, not just when it does.

Anyway - sorry. Back to the authoritarian/permissive coin. It is my gut feeling that most of the literature on gentle parenting is aimed at parents who fall naturally on the authoritarian side. This looks more like: reading motives into things that children do, fearing that without control your children might no longer respect you, worrying about what others think or what the child might do worse next time. If we take a typical example - a four year old draws on the table instead of on her paper. Handling it badly in an authoritarian way might be to go crazy, shouting, telling off, punishment, really out of proportion to what might be a simple accident or lack of knowledge, out of fear that the child might have done it on purpose, the assumption they should know by now, or that if they don't stop this now the child will never respect property ever. Handling it badly in a permissive way might be to think, oh well, that table's old anyway, it doesn't really matter. It's just part of what happens when you have children, and don't give them any information about what surfaces are OK and not OK to draw on, but then become upset when they begin to "decorate" their entire bedroom including walls, furniture and carpets.

Gentle parenting says - let some things go. Perhaps a table in a child's room is OK to draw on a little bit. Set them up to win - think ahead and prevent issues by putting down newspaper, only give them washable pens. Assume positive intent - give information, don't blame or criticise.

A naturally authoritarian parent reading those gentle parenting guidelines might think OK, this makes sense. They let the accidental table drawing go, without punishment, but still make it clear that they are displeased. They decide that this table is OK but they make that clear to their child and are extra attentive if they are doing art elsewhere. When "setting up to win" they are clear with the child about what they are doing and still expect other pens (etc) to be brought back to them. They ask questions to find out what happened and start from a point of teaching and communicating rather than jumping to "You did this on purpose, you've ruined my table!"

Conversely, a naturally permissive parent reading those guidelines interprets them differently. Letting things go - this lets them off the hook for confronting their child about the inappropriate drawing, which they don't want to do because they don't like conflict. Even when it moves onto other things that they are initially unhappy about, they think "Oh, but does it really matter? Never mind, it's OK to let that go. It's their room after all." Setting them up to win is interpreted as "it's my fault if they make a mistake" and assuming positive intent is used to override the effects of the action, rather than simply being a different starting point for discussion.

I don't know if it's that authoritarian parenting is more common, or that gentle parenting type stuff is just naturally aimed at the middle->opposite of the spectrum and it's assumed that if you're already on this side you don't need advice on how to be more on this side, but I have come to realise that, much like reading a newspaper which opposes your political views, if you're struggling with or even just interested in parenting techniques, it's probably more helpful to read parenting literature which contrasts your instincts, in order to surprise yourself and challenge yourself, rather than sticking with what you're totally comfortable with. It doesn't mean that you have to agree or follow the books to the letter, but when you're starting from a laid back point, it's really not helpful to read books telling you how to be more laid back. It just ends up being an excuse and then you wonder why it doesn't work like they promise that it does.

(Sorry for the mass essay!)

SunnyBaudelaire · 03/03/2015 09:08

I would stop breastfeeding him right now and learn to say NO to him without thinking it makes you an abusive parent.

WomanScorned · 03/03/2015 09:53

Thank you to all the kind posters who have taken the time to respond. There's a lot of advice/ reading there.
Actually, I followed some PDA links from a recentish thread in here - it scared me. Also, I read up on ODD for help with ex's other son. I was very critical of his parenting at that time (v. inconsistent, swinging from ignoring shocking behaviours to over reacting to lesser things, depending on his own mood). The reality is that I see similarities in some of the behaviours. Having said that, my DS is generally happy and sociable, whereas his half brother was/is clearly a lonely, unhappy boy.

As to what makes him tick. I'm not sure. We don't have tv, games consoles etc. He has a DVD/ tv thing, but it's only for DVD's. It's not his bedroom, btw. He responded well during the summer, to a sticker chart, for sleeping well and not having milk at all during the day. He loves getting stickers at school. I guess my heart wasn't fully in it, as I didn't want him to 'be good' for rewards. I want him to do things for the intrinsic pleasure, and because treating others well is the right thing to do. Clearly that's not happening, so we could revisit the sticker chart, but with more purpose.

We do talk about stuff when he's calm. I suggested setting him some challenges, ie, getting himself ready for school without fuss, so that he has some time for Lego before we go. That worked well this morning and we got there early with no reluctance. He stropped some when I said no to carrying him downstairs this am, and about having a lie in - in order to get more milk- but he accepted my 'no'. I had anticipated a difficult morning, as he took a while to settle last night, as he wanted me to sleep in his bed. First, he wanted to read another book - he knows the rule is he reads one, then I read 2 picture books or 2 chapters of a chapter book. Then he was thirsty, then hungry, then wanting tea to dip his biscuit in, then being itchy (because I tend to check itches from obsessive fear of parasites!) I think it was just an attempt to get the light on. I almost caved, and got the tea, as I felt cruel putting him to bed hungry, but I figured he would have eaten the digestive dry if he really was.

I think I must be a conflict avoider. I think I've learned to bend over backwards to appease others, to predict and be prepared for (my parents', partners' mood swings). I'm not very 'streetwise'. I trust people I shouldn't, because I want to see the good in people.

I definitely find other people's distress very difficult. I find it almost unbearable in my children, all children.

Thanks again for all the support. It helps - I would have been ashamed writing here that I got up and made the tea!

OP posts:
WomanScorned · 03/03/2015 10:00

Oh, and Polter goose - I'm almost afraid to follow some of your links. I think it's all going to be scarily familiar.

OP posts:
girliefriend · 03/03/2015 10:08

You sound aware of the issues which is half the battle imo!!

I hate conflict and will avoid it if I can but when it comes to dd I know that she needs boundaries in order to be a happy confident child. She needs to know I am in control and in charge, that said where possible we talk about things and if she feels strongly about something we look for a compromise.

She is now 9yo and it is easier but the groundwork was very much done when she was 5yo iyswim. I found that age tough for she constantly tested the boundaries, she is sensitive and I think has some sensory issues which make discipling more tricky at times. However if she did something I didn't like (rudeness, not listening, hitting etc) I would give fair warning, 'unless this behaviour stops and I get a nice apology then 'this' will happen' if the behaviour didn't stop then 'this' would be either a box of toys being taken away or the t.v being unplugged!!

Its not easy and listening to her screaming her head off as I wouldn't give in to her was difficult. However now she is 9yo and she is much more reasonable (most of the time Wink) so it is well worth it.

WomanScorned · 03/03/2015 10:11

Nearlyschooltime - I took your advice and gave lots of praise when he stamped his foot, but went no further, and acknowledged how much less unpleasant this morning was.
So glad you're now coming out the other side of this - it's exhausting, isn't it?
Do you remember when your son started hitting you? I'm fairly certain mine has always done it, def. as a toddler.

OP posts:
LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 03/03/2015 10:13

I think your latest post is most telling of all - you really don't want your son to dislike you, do you?

Thing is, it is entirely natural for children to dislike their parents at least some of the time. Your average small child is a pulsating mass of desires and needs. That's totally fine, that's how helpless babies survive - they cry loudly so their mother will feed them, basic survival skills, good work tiny babies.

But as the tiny babies grow up, that screaming howl of 'I want' becomes societally unwelcome. Your ex, I think, is like this and you don't like him very much, do you? Because he shouts and screams and bullies to get his own way.

So how do you help the baby grow up? By saying no, setting boundaries and - critically - teaching them to manage their own needs and desires for themselves. At the age of 44 I don't need society to tell me I can't do exactly as I want, I have learned that for myself and can control myself.

Does that mean sometimes I didn't like my mother, teachers, other relatives? Hell yeah, of course it does! But they taught me moderation and self regulation.

I think half the battle here will be for you to see that ^ is a good thing. It's not bad to say no. It's good for children to learn to hear that and to respond appropriately. Until that clicks for you, the advice and strategies won't work because your heart won't be in them and your DS will know that.