My 5y old DS bullies me

[WomanScorned]

Of course, he's lovely, sweet, funny and kind much of the time.
But if I don't instantly obey him, or if I thwart him in any way, he hits, kicks, headbutts me, and has recently begun 'snotting' at me, ie, forcing snot out at me.
He controls the stereo, the DVD player,the lights. Everything.
It's pretty clear I've confused 'gentle' parenting with permissive parenting, somewhere along the line. But what the heck do I do about it.
He is an only child, mum and dad have never lived together, but are mostly friendly.
He does not do any of this at school. He is described as very able, sociable and popular.
His dad has an older son who was excluded from mainstream education at a very young age, and I'm so afraid of the consequences of my son takes his home behaviour in to school. He frequently refuses to get dressed or to leave the house, as he doesn't want to go. School are supportive, but don't know the extent of it, as they haven't witnessed it.
My ex is loud and aggressive, but DS hasn't witnessed any DV. His dad's place is a very male environment and life revolves around tv, electronics and eating sweets and crap, but DS only goes there about once a month - his dad usually takes him to visit family for one afternoon a week.They are very competitive, as is my son - everything from getting dressed to going up stairs is a race.
He's very likeable most of the time. I have, for his sake, to show him that this violence is not ok, but I have to physically restrain him, push him away when he is hitting me and we both get hurt.
Thanx for any help.

Lobby - I think it's more that I don't want him to feel unloved by me.
His dad is likeable. Very charming, good fun, but manipulative, selfish and vile when things aren't going his way. I naively believed that recognising his PD kept me immune from the effects. I just kept my distance until he was 'nice' again. I don't believe he's a sociopath though; simply one bully within a whole family of them!
The last thing I want is to create another bully.

as I didn't want him to 'be good' for rewards. I want him to do things for the intrinsic pleasure, and because treating others well is the right thing to do.

He is far too young for that. You need to teach these things and enforce them so that they become second nature. None of us wake up one day and decide to think of others, we all started out as selfish people.

I've not read the whole thread so forgive me if I'm repeating something said before.
Let me start by saying I'm considered to be a very relaxed parent. Kids are allowed to ask why if I say no to something and I might even change my mind to yes if they put forward a reasonable argument.

The thing is though they know the boundaries because I've taught them what they are.
Boundaries make children feel safe. They know exactly what they can and can't do.
Growling, arguing back in a loud voice, kicking, biting and spitting are not tolerated and there are consequences.
The next time he does that say immediately to him do not spit/kick me whatever and take him immediately to the bathroom for time out.
Don't discuss anything just keep repeating that one sentence.
If he swears blind he's bleeding real blood, he's briken his toe in the bathroom or even if he cries that he's sorry do not let him out our talk to him for 5 minutes.
My daughter used to try opening the door and I would threaten another 5 minutes.
I've been known to hold the door closed on the other side after son locked himself in the bathroom during timeout and so now there are no keys in doors but that a whole other thread .....
When 5 mins are up go in and without emotion tell him what he did wrong and that it is not allowed.
When he attempts to bully you again simply ask if he'd like to go to time out, you'd be surprised how effective just the reminder can be.

Don't be afraid to set boundaries and to enforce consequences. You can still be a gentle parent 90% of the time.

Another here who thinks if the 'usual' techniques aren't working then it's time to try something else.

I've been told many a time by professionals my DS demand avoidance and control is due to his anxiety. DS himself can even tell me now he feels anxious when he doesn't know what to do (and that can simply be downtime) or know what's expected of him.

Have you tried visual timetables? This might help with the before school stuff. So picture cards on a Velcro strip and he does them in order - with your full support at first - and takes off each one as its completed. Then keep language simple but firm. By simple I don't mean a baby level but more not too much conversation. So state "DS, time for us to have breakfast now" then walk away and prepare breakfast, make breakfast and continue breakfast if he doesn't join you. When he's ready and approaches you remind him it's breakfast and ask him what he wants. No engagement in argument. Sounds tough but I've learnt the hard way with my DS that in order to avoid a loggerhead situation I have to avoid giving him a fight to fight! Tell the school your starting this - maybe even have a chat with school nurse. So if he's late for a period of time they know why. Once (cos I'm assuming hopefully this will work!) he's mastered this with your support and started to do it without your support (my DS visual timetable has minecraft rewards to Velcro on - as he is now independent) work on an after school timetable.

Don't try and change everything at once as an anxious child will react even more to this and the vicious cycle will continue.
I personally set myself a list of things I wanted to work on - prioritised them - and set myself a provisional target of how long I wanted to get it right. (Sometimes it's taken weeks longer, sometimes less time). Don't be disheartened if it takes longer - the target setting just made me realise how much more support DS needed and feel more empathy towards him and how frustrating it must be for him iyswim?

Importantly - stick to whatever you decide.

Question?! Do you ever have visitors or DS have friends round to play? What's he like then? Would these behaviours continue? Would he demand BF in front of them? Does he ever stay over at his dad's? How does he sleep there?
Think of all the times he's coped and remember that your DS can do this so your helping him do it on a more long term basis.

I also totally agree that the behaviour at school is a red herring. School has stretch routine and expectations. This probably lowers his anxieties there. However the left over anxiety is released at home which will always make things harder for you from the off.

Stick here - you sound lovely and I'm sure MN will be fully supportive.

I just have to get this out so I apologise for the caps!

SAYING NO DOES NOT EQUAL I DON'T LOVE YOU!

That's better.

Seriously OP, you need to examine your thinking round this. Who taught you saying no means you don't love someone? Who taught you preserving your bodily autonomy means you don't love someone? Because when you read those sentences, you know they're wrong, don't you?

Example:
DS wanted to stay up till ten and eat Galaxy on Sunday because I had a DF over - he didn't get to, because he needed to sleep, because he's 9 and 9 year olds need more sleep than grown ups. So he went to bed, after an extra 10 minutes of cuddles and grown up chat, and maybe 2 squares of chocolate.

Do you think that story represents the actions of a loving parent or of a parent who does not love their child? (and also a parent who loves herself, and her friend too, but that's a whole other story...)

Seriously, I know I'm prodding a sore spot, but all the techniques in the world won't work unless you embrace them and believe they are the right things to do.

I have been reading this thread open mouthed in astonishment that anyone could let a child (any other person at all actually) treat them this way. I haven't commented because honestly I just want to shake some sense into you and I think our personalities are so very polar opposite that I don't know how to relate to you. I have found Bertie's posts to be very interesting and insightful, though; the last one especially has given me a window into why someone would let a child behave like this.

I'm afraid your last sentence, though, just pushed me over the edge;
the last thing I want to do is create another bully

But you have and you are!! As previous posters have said, you are raising your child to think that he can get what he wants by hitting, kicking and spitting snot at you, by demanding that you subjugate all your needs and wants to his, to the point of sleeping on his floor and letting him forcibly breastfeed from you when you have said clearly that you don't want to. What the fuck sort of person do you think he's going to grow up into? How is he going to treat his partners? How will he treat you when he is bigger and stronger? Do think he's just going to magically create his own boundaries when you won't create any for him?? What are you going to do when he is big enough to properly assault and terrorise you?

It's lovely that you're getting lots of support here, but you don't seem to be acknowledging much of the advice and warnings you've been given. I think you need real life support in the form of a parenting course. Ask your HV if there are any available (I did, there were, and it was very useful).

I've ordered the Explosive Child and I've read the PDA stuff.

And now I'm in tears.

My adult DS clearly has depression/ anxiety issues. He was diagnosed with Aspberger's at 18.But he isn't aggressive; he functions, is well liked, doesn't mind his job, but my heart breaks for him, daily.

DS2 is nothing like his big brother. He doesn't appear to be anxious. He laughs a lot, he likes people and they like him. He's always been clingy, for want of a better word, but is only like it with me. He sometimes stays at his dad' s and I'm assured that he's fine. His dad says he turns back in to a baby as soon as he sees me. He loves playing with his older cousins, and is looking forward to staying over at my sister's for the first time this weekend, after the success of his first 'sleepover' with DS2 last weekend.

I did consider '5 year old Control Freak?' as my thread title.
Please, please let him just be 'a bit of a spoiled brat'

She has treated it as an equal relationship YY! One where a little 5yr old thinks he is an adult & is equal to his mother.

OP, it won't actually hurt your ds to cry/be angry! This won't make him insecure.

The word you are looking for is NO.

NO I am not sleeping on your floor.
NO milk now, or ever again (it isn't actually doing his teeth any good to have 3hrly milk through the night)
NO you can't have the TV remote.

It WILL get worse before it gets better, which is why you need to tackle it now, before he gets too old & too big for you to discipline him.

Do you work? If so, take a week off, and get on top of this. You are not raising a very person & by the time he is an teen he will be strong enough to over power you & may seriously hurt you.

All you are teaching him is to be violent to get what he wants. Yes! He already thinks that violence gets him what he wants, inc access to your body (for feeding). How will this carry over into his adult relationships, op?

I think it's more that I don't want him to feel unloved by me. Can I just say, op...going the way you are going is also going to make him feel unloved. Like you don't' care enough about him to put boundaries in place. Sorry, but you don't hear people saying 'my mum didn't love because she stopped breastfeeding me at 5/didn't sleep on my floor, told me off when I threw shoes at her" Children who are loved & shown love, and given boundaries don't' feel unloved (I felt unloved my whole life, and I know what it feels like, and it wasn't because my mum disciplined me)

Back to the poster who said children often dislike their parents...it's like they are programmed to, to some extent. And they need to & it is healthy, because they need to learn what is acceptable to them & they need to know they can dislike people & don't have to like everyone!

His dad says he turns back in to a baby as soon as he sees me He doesn't. He turns into a bully. You are his only victim, because he knows he can't get away with it, with anyone else. He isn't a spoilt brat, op. He is a violent little kid. I draw the line at brat, because this isn't his fault & calling him a brat is so unfair.

Crabby - I really am taking in all the advice; it's just that there's a lot of it and I'm working through all the posts and links, now.

I started sleeping on his floor about a year ago, btw. It seemed like a solution to the co- sleeping, in my bed, that I was so fed up with. I knew it wasn't usual, but am beginning to realise that it's more than that. Abnormal, even.

I know I just said he doesn't appear to be anxious, but I think he is genuinely scared of being on his own at night. He used to go to the loo by himself in the day, and does so at school, but rarely does, now. I sit on the stairs, generally. That seems to reassure him. I haven't thought of these as problematic anxieties before, just as annoyances he'll grow out of.

You are not raising a very nice person

OP, remember even if the PDA, ODD stuff fits, it doesn't mean that he's just going to be like this forever. There is a massive massive difference between children with difficult behavioural issues that are unmanaged, and children whose behavioural issues are managed, whatever the cause of those issues. It could be personality, it could be SN, it could be parenting.

I don't think it is necessarily about being disliked if I'm reading you right - it's more about not wanting to be the bad guy? It is hard when you are a lone parent and you have to be the good guy and the bad guy all at once. I certainly find it easier with DH, and it's not one sided, but children obviously don't tend to respond nicely to an adult when they feel angry with them, so instead of having two adults to rotate those roles, you do have to let him feel angry sometimes and then go in and be nice when he is calm. That is hard but it's just how you have to do things.

About intrinsic vs extrinsic rewards. Yes there is a school of thought that extrinsic can turn into intrinsic, this is true and for a lot of things it is about forming habits which is where star charts etc come in handy. I do agree with you - Alfie Kohn? - but find that in practice, I think you have to be really on the ball to keep it up and it's pretty demoralising for children who see other children getting rewarded for stuff and yet they don't? It's confusing. Especially if (like me) you find it easier to express criticism than appreciation! When DS asked me to buy sweets so I could train him to walk nicely like a dog, I realised that I was just fighting a losing battle trying to avoid that. So, yep, we have rewards now. But I still wasn't keen on the star chart idea and wanted to make it broader.

What we are doing now which is working very well is getting DS (6) to earn his privileges through gaining "tickets" (you could use a points system too) by meeting a set of behaviour expectations. The six main expectations (for us) are:

1. Be timely - basically not making us late for stuff, not messing around when it's time to go, getting out of the door on time, listening to warnings about how much time is left, being organised and remembering stuff, within reasonable bounds for his age.
2. Be respectful - no name calling, when angry can shout at things but not people, using a nice tone of voice when asking for stuff, please/thank you, not being rude and ordering people around, listening to requests (I don't demand immediate obedience but I do expect a polite response, even if it leads to bargaining)
3. Respect people's bodies - no hitting, no touching private places, keep doors to bathroom and other people's bedrooms closed, knock for entry (we don't currently have a lock), respect body boundaries ie if somebody says stop, stop, if you accidentally see somebody naked (etc) say "Sorry!" and walk away/close the door.
4. Eating nicely - sitting still at the table, not getting up and wandering around, don't spit or throw food, leaving something if you don't like it without whining or moaning about it being on the plate. We don't expect perfect table manners, but the basics.
5. Being helpful - complete a list of daily (small) chores, don't obstruct activities deliberately to be annoying, if someone says "I don't need help" don't barge in and help anyway, if asked for help, help if you can. (It's OK to say "I can't because...")
6. Keep yourself and your things clean - brush teeth x2, shower if it's a shower day, wash hands and face when needed, don't pee all over the floor and leave it, tidy up after yourself (again not perfectly, but not leaving huge messes around for others to clean up), empty school lunch box in the kitchen.

You notice how I've set it out as a positive expectation (what I want) and then only followed it up mentally with what I'm not looking for.

It's bloody amazing. Transformative. We don't go on and on at him about stuff. Don't use it as a threat - you're about to lose your ticket for X - but instead I use little phrases like "That isn't very respectful, would you like to try again?" and you can praise very specifically by using the same words. "Thank you for bringing your plate through. It's really helpful when you do that." Don't bargain for tickets. Don't even mention or discuss with him throughout the day which tickets he has or doesn't have. At the end of the day we tell him OK, today you earned X number of tickets for X, Y and Z. (DH insists on telling him which tickets he lost and why, which I think is unhelpful because it's focusing on the bad again, but eh. I only tell him if he asks.) DS' tickets are for screen time, because that is his currency. He is allowed to use up to two tickets for bedtime (if it's not too late) or he can save them for use the next day, so he gets an immediate feedback and a longer term one. There are also extra things he can do for "instant tickets" like try a new food or activity, be extra kind and helpful, finish his chore chart before 4pm, and then any little extra goals we set him. We made the tickets together from card and sticky backed plastic so he has a tangible thing I can give him to hold which is good. You could also use pennies/real money or pieces of pasta or stones in a jar.

I don't think it does lead to him caring only about the reward. If he loses one ticket he doesn't then not care about that for the rest of the day (I think he might if I was using the old language "Well now you've lost out on that" kind of thing). I really think that setting out the expectations like that and then the constant daily reminder of them helps the most of all. He is motivated by the tickets, but of course they will be phased out as he gets older. (He asked me the other day "When I'm 18 and I can drive a car, I might get a ticket for that for doing something new!" I said when you're 18 and drive a car, won't you care more that you have a car? to which he looked amazed and said "Wooow. I can't wait until I'm 18!")

Sometimes of course he still loses control or lashes out. In those cases we go back to the calming down techniques - removal from situation, into bedroom if necessary, but mostly just reacting immediately to his attitude (almost like puppy training!) - when he's polite and helpful and nice then I try really hard to accommodate his wishes, to do what he asks me to do, to play with him, do little nice extras like let him have money to spend while we're out or that kind of thing, just to let him know I like spending time with him when he is like that. When he's being rude, stroppy, attitudey, or even just too hyperactively silly, then I go back to being bare minimum, I don't do favours for him that he could do himself, I don't play or read with him, he doesn't get given random surprises, I am polite to him, and I certainly don't ignore him or give him the could shoulder just because I'm angry about something he's not doing any more, but I am not going out of my way to be nice. If he's trying to engage me by being stroppy, or hyper, then I tell him to go away, calm down and then try again. That definitely comes with age, but I think I could have introduced it much earlier, like at around 2 or 3 and it would have been easier for him.

I don't know whether this system would have been possible a year ago. So if it's not something which would work for you now, hold onto it for the future perhaps. But I still wanted to share because it has helped so much. I'm finding that it's really positive to be able to say "Hey, I know this is hard for you, but you really did well. I'm proud of you."

Also, when you have finished raising him, the rest of the world has to deal with him.

It is up to you to make sure (as best you can) that he is a descent human being.

Hold on, it took me a while to write that so I need to catch up with the thread - sorry to post more "advice" (although, really, "option", not advice at all :)) when you're feeling overwhelmed. Will be back when I have read!

I wouldn't call any child a brat, btw. I put that as, unpleasant, undesirable and extreme as it is, it would be easier (for me) to accept/deal with, than the alternative.

OP - I seriously think you need to actually go on a parenting course. This is so upsetting to read and I think you need some help in real life from people who are trained for this.

Your DS1 has Asperger's syndrome?

You do realise that no 2 people with asd present the same don't you? They are as individual as NT people. Anxiety and control, demand avoidance and baby fying oneself are all associated with children on the spectrum. Of course these behaviours alone can also be present in someone NT. But you do need to separate your DS' and stop comparing them.
Is ds2 dad the same as ds1. (Sorry know that's personal). Only because you describe him as having PD, controlling etc when things aren't gling his way. The whole family being like this. Could there be an un dx link of asd type behaviours form his dad's side?

The thing with co sleeping in your bed, is that you are on an equal level & it is YOUR space, you are 'boss', you are in charge, your rules should be respected!

Because you sleep on his floor, you are below him.
Him = bed, you = floor.
Him = superior, you = inferior.
Him = boss, you = slave.

In his room = he is 'in charge' it's his space.

Better to co sleep, than be relegated to the floor.

Be careful feeding his "anxieties" I put it in "" because how do you know it isn't just something else to control you? My 6yr old was scared of going into the bathroom, suddenly, for no reason. I knew she was playing me, so I got some star stickers & started putting them on the calender each time she went in by herself. When we weren't looking/thinking about it she would end up in there playing in the sink with her toys. She wasn't scared of the bathroom, she just wanted something she could control & attention.

She tried the same with the toilet, soon put a stop to that!

You can create anxieties where they don't exist. You need to be careful that you aren't helping to feed the annoyances that yes, he would normally grow out of. He just knows how to twist & turn them & make them into issues to control you with!

I expect his dad doesn't sleep on his floor?

I think you should go on a parenting course as well.

I wouldn't call any child a brat, btw. I put that as, unpleasant, undesirable and extreme as it is, it would be easier (for me) to accept/deal with, than the alternative.
I understand.

oh and paint "stop and grow" on your nipples that will soon stop him.

OK - on being hungry at night. Don't offer him snacks after bedtime. It is bad for his teeth, and he's old enough to start thinking ahead. Have a set time after which there is no more food. Give him a "last orders from the kitchen?" warning 15 minutes before if he wants a snack or a small supper.

If he misjudges it, then yes, he will be hungry at night. You know - that's perfectly OK. Maybe he needs to have that experience of being a little bit hungry (he is not starving or in pain :)) one night to understand that if he doesn't think ahead, he will be hungry.

As babies, when they can't do anything for themselves, it is right to give them what they need. As they grow, we need to give them the chance to take responsibility for himself. When you give him snacks, you are filling in the gap and removing the responsibility. He is actually responsible for managing his own hunger in advance and thinking "It's a long time until breakfast - do I need a snack now?" Of course, at five, he might not remember this, so it's perfectly OK to remind him by asking if he wants a snack before the cut off point.

Co sleeping - the way I weaned DS off it at 2.5 was that he started out in his own bed. He was allowed to come into my bed if he wanted in the night but he had to walk himself. (I put stairgates on the stairs so he wouldn't fall). He had to lie still and not talk, that was the rule. If he didn't/couldn't/didn't want to then he could go back to his bed and fidget. That was the choice I gave him and it worked. Eventually it was too much effort to come back to bed!

If he is scared, offer to come and check on him every 20 minutes and slowly increase the time. Let him listen to a story CD or read to himself until he is sleepy. Put a night light on or leave the curtains open. Let him choose a new cuddly toy for in bed protection. Monster spray? Does he sleep alone at Dad's? Play alone in his room in the day? If he is not anxious generally, I think he is probably not scared, and he is playing up to your anxiety, not his.

Please don't feel sad for your DS. He is going to be just fine. With such a compassionate, caring, thoughtful mum (perhaps a little too thoughtful ) you have a lot to share with him and a lot to give him. It takes some work to get ourselves polished enough to pass on, huh?? But seriously. You are doing exactly the right thing by seeking advice. Don't despair - I'm really certain you can get through this, work it out and get your little boy back - I expect you were incredibly close when he was younger, am I right? A combination of encouraging his independence but keeping him on the rails isn't easy but look at you - you've imbibed all of these books and theories so far! And you're already changing some of the ways you respond to him since posting here. Don't underestimate that. And maybe look into some self esteem or assertiveness counselling for you. If you don't have childcare, get childcare. Look after yourself as well, first, in fact. How can you get him to respect you, when you don't respect yourself? (I think that respect is hidden in there somewhere, under a pile of false obligations you have made for yourself. Throw them away now!)

keep trying and I'm sorry you're still getting harsh responses on this thread (or perhaps they're helpful - who knows?) When you feel like you can't do it, sing that Thomas song in your head, "Never never never give up!"

(Oh and thanks to people who have said nice things.)

Sorry too much effort to come in to me.