Were we right today??

[CocktailQueen]

DH and I fancied a lie in today so we asked the kids, age 4 and 8, not to wake us till 8. They can go donwstairs after 7 and watch tv/play, and we left them out brekky snacks. So they came to wake us at 8 and were being bonkers - jumping all over us in bed and fighting. We said, give us 5 mins for a cuddle and we'll get up. But they fought, kept coming back in, ignoring us saying no and stop, then ds went downstairs, took a tube yoghurt from the fridge and managed to spray it all over the dfining room/kitchen (he was pretending to be a rhino with a horn).....

dh was v cross. Sent them to their rooms. We didn't go out to wildlife park as planned and instead had quiet morning at home then went out for walk. Rest of day fine.

But wwy have done?? Were we too strict? Dh hates when the kids don't listen to him and I can see his point.

You could assess whether your 3 yr old can be left to play or be strapped in a highchair,... but,..No, Tortoiseshell,.. I tell you what - Just let your kids play in the kitchen while you cook - Go for the easy option instead of the safety option.
I sincerely hope there is never an accident.

Just because you do something the way you do - does not mean it is right. However, it is YOUR choice, obviously.

How about, and this is just a crazy idea I'm throwing out there, you back the fuck off and stop telling me I'm an irresponsible parent? I see it as part of my responsibility as a parent to teach my child about safety, and to help her acquire the skills she needs in order to make those judgement calls, understand the real dangers, and practise the physical tasks that will help her be safe.

A five year old who has been introduced gradually to kitchen skills is safer in the kitchen than a five year old who has never been allowed to set foot in the room. An eight year old who has been allowed to use knives of varying size and sharpness, working up from blunt safety knives, is safer than one who has never been allowed to cut a thing. Any child who has been included in household tasks from an early age will have an advantage over those who have been kept contained, strapped in or segregated until they are of school age. My daughter knows which things she can and can't touch, which things she needs to ask permission before accessing and which things are at her disposal, and she didn't learn that on her own, I taught her.

Allowing one's children to experience small, controllable risks is essential. Making the judgement calls that assess how small and how controllable the risk, and whether your particular child is ready for the next stage, is an integral part of a parent's job. Keeping an NT three year old strapped into a fucking highchair instead of finding safe ways to include them in the task is a shortcut. That is the easy option.

So stop calling me irresponsible and lazy, please. I work damn hard to make sure my children understand the context in which they live, and the risks of their world, and to teach them the physical and risk assessment skills that will help protect them when I can't be there.

I've been lurking on this thread for ages. Just out of interest, Davsmum - how old are your children? Do they really never come in the kitchen with you?

I'm with tortoise on this one. My 22 month old understands 'hot', 'dangerous' and moves well away from the cooker and if I have to pick up a hot pan I just tell her 'away' and she moves to the other side of the kitchen until it's safe again. As tortoise said, it's about teaching about risks and dangers in a small and controlled manner - ultimately this is the safety option because it teaches the child how to be safe when mummy and daddy aren't there or are distracted.

My daughter's kindergarten teach food preparation from the age of 3, including chopping vegetables once children are at a developmental stage where they can hold a knife correctly. I checked the 16 year olds at the school and they all have their fingers.

Tortoise,
You seem to have an inability to understand what I am saying - and making up your own interpretation based on your own defensiveness.
I am all for introducing a child to safety in the kitchen - at the right time when THAT is the object of the activity.
When you are cooking a meal for a family is NOT the right time ! Your attention is split between the task in hand and your child.

Is this hard to understand or what ?

BTW I don't think I have called you irresponsible or lazy and I certainly have not sworn at you, as you feel the need to do, even though I find you as exasperrating as you apparently find me.
I too, taught my children about safety in the kitchen. I taught then chopping and cutting and washing up and preparing foods but when I was doing a family meal - they were kept out of harms way. They were not 'banned' completely from the kitchen when no cooking was going on but its common sense to restrict a child based on their age and level of understanding.
I have never read or heard of any child safety expert who recommends toddlers running about or under your feet whilst you are cooking a meal.
I know adults who have bumped into each other in a kitchen for goodness sake.

How do you possible bring yourself to take your DC in the car Davsmum? Do you just assume that an accident can't happen to you? Or do you say that it could happen, but you think that car travel with a DC is an acceptable risk- in the same way that I say being in the kitchen when I am working is an acceptable risk and yet I am irresponsible and you are responsible when statistics tell us that the car is a more likely cause of injury?
I also prefer the kitchen because it is just me and I am aware and careful whereas any idiot can crash into you on the road?

I also think it is very sad when a DC is only allowed to do anything in the kitchen when mum has designated it-much better to help when you are cooking a family meal-it is family life.

Errmm, ??? Thats not the same is it.
In a car - you take all the safety precautions relating to the child - and if you have any sense, you drive sensibly.
You MINIMISE the risks by using a safety seat - strapping the child in. You don't go on about not wanting to restrict the child.
You don't leave the child loose in the car claiming that you are watching the child whilst you are driving, because you can do those two things properly and that you drive so the child will not fall about !

• In the same way, you minimise the risks in a kitchen WHEN YOU ARE COOKING A MEAL ! by keeping the child away from the cooker,.. and your legs whilst you are moving about with stuff.

No one can totally control every situation - but its your job, infact, as a parent your damn duty, to mimimise the risks.

I think that we will have to agree to disagree -when I am cooking a meal I am supervising my DC. I am not about to lift liquids or open oven doors when they are on the loose. Playing around my legs when I am slicing carrots or washing up isn't going to cause them an injury and since you won't have it that they can be elsewhere in the house they are going to spend a lot of time strapped in.
I also want to get them used to doing something in the kitchen as a matter of course-not just when I happen to have set time aside.
I think driving dangerous-you don't know what situation you are going to meet. In my kitchen I do know.

lol only let children in when you are teaching them and not cooking a family meal, or do BOTH, its perfectly easy to do. and with regards to chefs etc cooking with small children, well jamie oliver has done it on tv with his tow daughters when they were small. at my childrens centre they have a mum and tots group where you go and do basic simple cooking etc with young toddlers helping out ans you can even now have 'cooking parties' for children, i got a leaflet about one recenlty through my door.

i can mimimise the risks and still have my child in the kitchen, i put dd in the bumbo if i need to (highchair woudnt fit in the kitchen) and my 3 yr old knows to stand away from the cooker when i open it etc, plus i can position myself between hot pans/cooker etc and small child. putting them in the highchair the whole time you cook, everytime you cook a meal, you really do that?!

i came home from school today and my 12yr old had the oven on ready and veg prepped etc so we can get dinner on and done as we have to be out again for a sports club later on. my 6yr old can make himself toast in the toaster, my 9yr old can make himself cheese on toast under the grill because from a young age they have been with me and watched nad learnt how to do this and yes in reference to the op i would let a 4 and 8yr old get up before us on a weekend, my elder 3 boys do and they will get themselves breakfast and even get some for the 3yr old giving me 20mins extra in bed, i can hear them, they can ask for help if they need be, but they are perfectly capable of getting up, going downstairs, playing quietly and getting themselves bfast.

I agree 4madboys. The most valuable learning experience is being part of a family and learning as you go.

exactly exotic!! my boys watch and copy/learn with whatever i am doing, they help clean and tidy and sort laundry and lay the table, my 12yr old has just put some stuff in the oven, dd is sat in the bumbo on the kitchen floor watching as he puts it in, i can see him but he automatically got the oven gloves, got everything ready on the tray etc and knows what he is doing as he has watched me since he was a tiny baby. he really enjoys cooking, all my boys enjoy helping and having four boys i am making dam sure that they all learn to cook, clean, help out as i am NOT having them grow up to be the kind of men that never learnt and relied on their mothers to do everything for them!

my children are a big part of my life and as such they are involved in all aspects, they are part of this household and they see how it is run and the work involved in keeping everything running smoothly, this is a LIFE skill that they need to learn, far better to get them involved from the get go than keep them out and only let them in when you want to 'teach' them something!!

I have 3 boys and so feel the same. I want them to enjoy food and see on a day to day basis how it is cooked so they can do it themselves-rather like an apprentice-starting with the blunt knife and chopping board.
I do not want them to see the kitchen as a sterile 'adult only zone' where they are allowed in only when I have decided to devote time to them and am doing nothing else.
I am not quite sure, if you always keep them strapped in and watching when you let them out, when they learn the oven is hot, when you give them a sharp knife, let them make toast, boil a kettle-I suspect in most cases far too late. I bet there are many people on here who wouldn't leave a 12 yr old alone and certainly wouldn't let them prepare vegand switch the oven on when you are not there.
I always think-'thank goodness for the Scouts' my DS supervised his patrol cooking a 3 course meal for a competition. He was quite capable at 15yrs of getting the group organised, including deep fried donuts and the 10yr olds were fine. However I bet some of them were never allowed to do it at home.

i think people are a bit obsessed with risk assesment and not letting children learn, i always helped out from a young age, and it is the way things have always been done in generations gone by! anyhow my 12yr old sorted dinner, the middle two laid the table, i then served it up and have washed up, in a min i shall send my 9 and almost 7 yr old up the road to a friend who is taking them to korfball for me so i dont have to take the baby and the toddler out. i will watch them to the end of our cul-de-sac, they will then cross two very small roads (on a housing estate) to get to my friend, its 2 mins up the road in a straight line, there are street lights, they will go up no their own they are perfectly capable of doing this, just as my 9yr old goes to the shop on his own and the 12yr old to town etc, tbh i dont think we give children enough opportunity to learn to be responsible and do things, yes its actually easier to just get on and do everyything for them when they are younger, but the reality they need to do stuff, far better to get them used to doing stuff when younger so they just see it as part and parcel of life and then you can reduce levels of supervision as they get older.

the idea of setting aside time to 'teach' them about safety in the kitchen is laughable to me actually, its just something we have done with them since they were tiny, always there, talking to them, involving them in what we are doing, which imo is the best way they can learn!

My one regret is not getting them to do stuff early enough-just because it was easier to do it myself. If I had my time over it is the one big change I would make.
I think that people's perceptions of kitchens are different. Mine is the heart of the house, not some show place where not much happens.I have just made 2 lots of chutney-is a DC supposed to be strapped in all that time-or am I supposed to wait until they are in bed?
My ideal was my aunt's kitchen when I was a DC -a huge farmhouse one with sofa, Aga and very often an orphan lamb next to the Aga.
Where does ironing come? Is that another strapped in occupation?
It seems to me that you have to send them to nursery because you can't have them around while you multi task-however I would rather have them at home learning safety while doing.

yes its hard isnt it, because it IS quicker and easier to do it yourself, the temptation is there to just take over and i admit, i do at times do that! but i also have a time scale to keep to and a dp that works long and awkward hours so am on my own with all 5 a lot of the time and i need to get them all sorted, ready for school, clubs etc, but i really try to keep them involved in what i am doing, i mean its how they learn i think, even things like going to the supermarket and getting them to pick the veg etc, yes it takes that tiny bit longer, but it keeps them engaged in what you are doing and makes it a happier experience for all. my worst times are when i am stressed and hurrying and dont let them help, if i slow down and get them involved we all have a much better time :)

and yes i would LOVE a big kitchen, i am lucky that the dining rm is almost open plan to ours, so we can do chopping etc on the dining rm table and i can see them from the kitchen, but oh a big kitchen, big enough to have a sofa down one end and a big table would be great! we had one like that when we were on holiday this year and it was fab!

and as for ironing, i am afraid i dont do much of that, only dd's little dresses and yes i do do it with them around, tho you can tell i dont do it much as when i got the iron out recently ds4 who is 3, thought it was an electric sander!! as that is something he has seen used more than the iron

I have been giving it some thought because, when someone keeps challenging you, you think 'am I wrong?'
It was the way that I was brought up, my mother was a great cook-it had been her career and the kitchen wasn't out of bounds. I remember in my first year of teaching a mother saying something that made it obvious that her DD only cooked if the mother was 'teaching' her in a special child session and I was quite shocked and thought 'poor DD'. (I didn't comment). I think it must have been in response to me using it as a good way to help with Maths. I wasn't shocked in later years, as I was less naive and realised that not all parents let DCs learn as a part of normal life.
After being challenged I don't think that I am wrong and would be quite happy to leave a young DC with you 4madboys.
(DH does most of our ironing, but DSs have decided that it isn't necessary!)

Davsmum, isn't it just possible that some people don't find cooking a family meal such a stressful occasion that they cannot also use it to teach some cooking skills?

Surely it is just possible for a parent to be sufficiently together to remember when s/he is about to lift a boiling pot/wield a cleaver and look around for dcs first?

It's a while since my dcs were young enough to require much supervision, but I still frequently combine cooking the family meal with mumsnetting in the other room/reading a book/listening to somebody's drama rehearsal. I just don't find it takes my full attention (being quite an experienced cook).

fwiw I grew up in Sweden where children are involved with family diy etc from a very young age- and the rate of child accidents is no higher there. I helped my dad with the boat and was with him when he did repair work on the house. In later years I have noticed that my nephews do the same.

I'm with you two. I do notice that Davsmum hasn't answered my question about her children - it's actually quite unusual on MN for someone not to give examples about what they're doing with their children but she doesn't mention them except in the long-distant past tense.

"its your job, infact, as a parent your damn duty, to mimimise the risks."

This attitude makes me mad as fire. It is NOT your duty to minimise risks, it IS your duty to teach your child to manage them appropriately - and they need to start doing this from the first instant they can understand the word NO (about 9m). I can only think, Davsmum that either you're incompetent in the kitchen or you have serious personal issues around risk. In which case you do your child no favours to pass them on.

Either that or she's just a troll, of course.

""its your job, infact, as a parent your damn duty, to mimimise the risks."

This attitude makes me mad as fire. It is NOT your duty to minimise risks, it IS your duty to teach your child to manage them appropriately -"

hear hear!

The problem is that if she doesn't teach them to minimise risks and they don't know that 'NO' means 'NO,' and the reason for it it being 'NO', then they will be a danger.

One of my last jobs, before I gave up supply teaching was making soup with a group of yr 6 DCs and it was quite obvious which ones were used to chopping vegetables, and stirring hot liquids on the cooker, and which had never done it! You only need one guess to say which were safer.

My children are teenagers.
It may be your duty to teach your children to recognise and manage risks, I have never suggested otherwise, but if you think its not your duty to minimise risks you are totally irresponsible.
You may decide its ok to have your 11mth old baby or 2 year old around your feet whilst cooking a meal but that does not mean its right to do so. Please stop confusing the issue of teaching and letting children help with having a toddler under your feet when cooking a proper meal.

Children do not HAVE to be involved in everything !
BTW, I don't find cooking stressful. I don't find children stressful.

Parents will always defend what they do but I think its a case of serious underestimation of the dangers of this situation.

but teaching and learning is something that happens ALL the time with small children, they are always watching you and having a toddler and baby in the kitchen is perfectly managable and even if they are not physically doing something they are watching and listening (i tend to talk about what i am doing)

and i find it very hard to believe davsmum that you ALWAYS had you kids out of the kitchen/in a high chair each and every time you cooked a family meal. and i know my own active babies and toddlers wouldnt always have sat happily in a highchair anyway, i would have foudn them screaming whilst stuck in a high chair far more of a distraction than having them happily in the kitchen with me.