Irish names help!

[nothingseasy]

Hiya,
I'm calling out to all Irish speakers please.

I want to call my baby Ayveen In Irish. I've established from other threads that it's not Aoibheann or Aoibhinn or anything beginning with Aoi as this makes an ee sound. However nobody can conclusively say how it should be spelled.

I'd like to know what letters (diphthong/triphthong) make the aye/ay sound I am looking for. Do they exist in Irish?

Alternatives I've seen are

Éabhaoin
Éimhín
Aibhín

I personally favour the Aibhín but does ai in Irish make the sound ay?

Please help it's driving me mad!!

We are living in England and I want to keep a connection to my Irish heritage so I want an Irish name. We have trawled through them all and this is the only one we liked so when we found out it wasn't even said right we were devastated.

Please don't tell me not to bother with an Irish name in England or that I shouldn't give it an Irish name because they will have trouble e.t.c.

Help resolving the spelling is really all I am after.

Thank you x

No idea why that post went so weird, looks like I copied and pasted a chunk of it by accident!

I love teanglann too except when the words I want aren't in the pronunciation thing but I always feel bad about An Rinn.

I feel with the Caighdeán now that at least something is keeping track of grammar, so much is dying out. I find RnaG is not as reliable as it used to be either, and my Irish is nothing special.

So we are back to not using Aoi then?🤣

I did look for some help @Apileofballyhoo but didn't know where to start! I've asked all my relations and friends relation. Ive had many divided opinions. This has been the most productive and informative convo about it.

I googled some Irish speaking websites but they were all in Irish with no translate button 🤣🙈

How would I go about contacting RnaG?

It is sad it's dying out😔 I wish it was more like welsh, they speak it a lot to each other. We aren't so good😔

Apileofballyhoo I thought that was a long established name, Caoilfhionn pronounced either Keelin or Queelin. I've known a few over the years. Or were you just referring to the anglicised spelling?

@Apileofballyhoo an bhfuil tú ag rá go ceart é an litriú "Caolfhionn" cé gur chuirfeadh mó spellcheck "Caoilfhionn" air?
Más ea, nach suimiúil "Caolfhionn" agus "Aobhfhinn" mar ainm dhá fhocal le leathan-caol ina lár?

*cosúlacht cha suimiúil

Translation: the name Caolfhionn is like Aobhfhinn having a broad consonant next to a slender one, because it's made of two words. You get these debates Kaylin versus Keelin like Ayvin versus Eevin.

This really really is not about the language being lost. Dil.ie has all these forms for the word we spell aobh now:

"oíph, oíb, aíb, oeb, aeb, lan-aeba, aóbh, aoibh, aobha, aebh, aeibhe, áobh, aeib, aoibh, aebglan, oebnār " sic dil.ie/33585

So we are having a thousand year old conversation! How cool is that?

It is cool @SeanChailleach

Are all of these pronounced similar to ee?

I can only find a few on teanglann

www.teanglann.ie/en/fuaim/Aoibh

I think I might be able to help here. I worked with a girl called Éimhín who was from the Gaeltacht. She pronounced it Ayveen, and I've always understood that this was the authentic spelling "as Gaeilge" of this name. It makes more sense to be honest, as the fadas are over the E and I. I find all the other versions confusing and never know what way to pronounce them!

It is interesting isn't it?
How do you pronounce Caolfhionn Apileofballyhoo? I thought 'Keelin' was an accepted pronunciation, but then I spell it Caoilfhionn. I know it may not have been like this originally though, SeanChailleach
I also think it sometimes gets confused with the male name Caolán, which can be Quail-awn or Keelan depending on dialect, and is anglicised as Keelan too.
Poor old Emer should have a h all right, in modern spelling. The Et-na pronunciation of Eithne is also apparently wrong. When these names were revived mistakes were made.

I think it's clear some do pronounce Éimhín as Ayveen as the earlier recording shows. However, a pp said she had met men with the name (complete with fadas) who pronounced it Evan. I think they should have left off the fadas tbh. The version given in the translation of Monasterevan has one fada - Eimhín.

Queelin is much closer Mindy, but I'd have a different mouth position for saying Caolfhionn. If you listen to caol on teanglann you'll hear the difference. It's nearly like it has two syllables.

Is dóigh go comhfhocal é Caolfhionn, Sean, cosúil le seanbhean, breithlá srl. Mar sin ní leanann sé leathan le leathan caol le caol. Seans maith go bhfuil Aobhfhinn mar an gcéanna.

Is dóigh nach bhfaca mé Caoilfhionn riamh. Rinne mé Google agus chonaic mé é. Daoine ag cloí le leathan le leathan caol le caol gan fhios nach leanann gach focal an riail seo? B'fhéidir gur tharla an rud céanna le Aobhfhinn? Ní fhreagraíonn é sin an cheist faoi 'ín/een' ag deireadh an fhocail - níor chuala mé Caol-ín fós. B'fhéidir go bhfuil sé ag teacht. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuaimnítear 'binn' agus 'cinn' cosúil le 'bín' agus 'cín', ach ní dóigh go bhfuil fín déanta as fionn/finn in áit ar bith Dá mbeadh Ay-vin ag teastáil uaim d'úsáidfinn Aebfind, b'fhéidir. Is féidir a rá ansin (ceann eile nach leanann l le l, c le c!) go bhfuil sean litríú á úsaid agat.

OP, you could write to RnaG Kerry, address is on the website. There doesn't seem to be separate emails for the different locations, just a main one and a Dublin one. We could all help with writing it in Irish - mine is far from perfect but I'm better with writing than speaking. Long long ago I did Celtic Civilization in first year at UCC and we had Pádraig Ó Riain and Máire Herbert as lecturers and I can see either of them being interested/helpful and actually knowing about how the old, old, name was probably said, especially if it was the name of a saint's mother (can't remember the saint, sorry, or where I saw that), and how that name journeyed into modern Irish. For example, 'leabhar' used to be 'lebor' as far as I remember. They are both retired so I don't know how you'd get in touch and I don't know what the new people are like and whether they'd be helpful or interested.

@Number3BigCupOfTea

If you're worried about ''you made that up'' accusations then Eabha with nn Eabhin is lovely. Little Eva

That's nice, actually.

@Apileofballyhoo

Queelin is much closer Mindy, but I'd have a different mouth position for saying Caolfhionn. If you listen to caol on teanglann you'll hear the difference. It's nearly like it has two syllables.

Is dóigh go comhfhocal é Caolfhionn, Sean, cosúil le seanbhean, breithlá srl. Mar sin ní leanann sé leathan le leathan caol le caol. Seans maith go bhfuil Aobhfhinn mar an gcéanna.

Is dóigh nach bhfaca mé Caoilfhionn riamh. Rinne mé Google agus chonaic mé é. Daoine ag cloí le leathan le leathan caol le caol gan fhios nach leanann gach focal an riail seo? B'fhéidir gur tharla an rud céanna le Aobhfhinn? Ní fhreagraíonn é sin an cheist faoi 'ín/een' ag deireadh an fhocail - níor chuala mé Caol-ín fós. B'fhéidir go bhfuil sé ag teacht. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuaimnítear 'binn' agus 'cinn' cosúil le 'bín' agus 'cín', ach ní dóigh go bhfuil fín déanta as fionn/finn in áit ar bith Dá mbeadh Ay-vin ag teastáil uaim d'úsáidfinn Aebfind, b'fhéidir. Is féidir a rá ansin (ceann eile nach leanann l le l, c le c!) go bhfuil sean litríú á úsaid agat.

OP, you could write to RnaG Kerry, address is on the website. There doesn't seem to be separate emails for the different locations, just a main one and a Dublin one. We could all help with writing it in Irish - mine is far from perfect but I'm better with writing than speaking. Long long ago I did Celtic Civilization in first year at UCC and we had Pádraig Ó Riain and Máire Herbert as lecturers and I can see either of them being interested/helpful and actually knowing about how the old, old, name was probably said, especially if it was the name of a saint's mother (can't remember the saint, sorry, or where I saw that), and how that name journeyed into modern Irish. For example, 'leabhar' used to be 'lebor' as far as I remember. They are both retired so I don't know how you'd get in touch and I don't know what the new people are like and whether they'd be helpful or interested.

Yes. There are very knowledgeable people still in that department. I didn't do Irish in UCC myself, but I have a relative who did her degree there. She knew Máire and said she was lovely.

Interesting debate on this thread!

@applesandbananasandoranges

I think I might be able to help here. I worked with a girl called Éimhín who was from the Gaeltacht. She pronounced it Ayveen, and I've always understood that this was the authentic spelling "as Gaeilge" of this name. It makes more sense to be honest, as the fadas are over the E and I. I find all the other versions confusing and never know what way to pronounce them!

Yeah this was mentioned. Although as @LizzieAnt said there was some confusion with it being the male name Evan.

Would you know if there was a difference using mh here or bh?

@Apileofballyhoo

Queelin is much closer Mindy, but I'd have a different mouth position for saying Caolfhionn. If you listen to caol on teanglann you'll hear the difference. It's nearly like it has two syllables.

Is dóigh go comhfhocal é Caolfhionn, Sean, cosúil le seanbhean, breithlá srl. Mar sin ní leanann sé leathan le leathan caol le caol. Seans maith go bhfuil Aobhfhinn mar an gcéanna.

Is dóigh nach bhfaca mé Caoilfhionn riamh. Rinne mé Google agus chonaic mé é. Daoine ag cloí le leathan le leathan caol le caol gan fhios nach leanann gach focal an riail seo? B'fhéidir gur tharla an rud céanna le Aobhfhinn? Ní fhreagraíonn é sin an cheist faoi 'ín/een' ag deireadh an fhocail - níor chuala mé Caol-ín fós. B'fhéidir go bhfuil sé ag teacht. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuaimnítear 'binn' agus 'cinn' cosúil le 'bín' agus 'cín', ach ní dóigh go bhfuil fín déanta as fionn/finn in áit ar bith Dá mbeadh Ay-vin ag teastáil uaim d'úsáidfinn Aebfind, b'fhéidir. Is féidir a rá ansin (ceann eile nach leanann l le l, c le c!) go bhfuil sean litríú á úsaid agat.

OP, you could write to RnaG Kerry, address is on the website. There doesn't seem to be separate emails for the different locations, just a main one and a Dublin one. We could all help with writing it in Irish - mine is far from perfect but I'm better with writing than speaking. Long long ago I did Celtic Civilization in first year at UCC and we had Pádraig Ó Riain and Máire Herbert as lecturers and I can see either of them being interested/helpful and actually knowing about how the old, old, name was probably said, especially if it was the name of a saint's mother (can't remember the saint, sorry, or where I saw that), and how that name journeyed into modern Irish. For example, 'leabhar' used to be 'lebor' as far as I remember. They are both retired so I don't know how you'd get in touch and I don't know what the new people are like and whether they'd be helpful or interested.

I think I will write to them you know. I'd be interested to hear what they say. Thanks for directing me.

Do you think I'd have to write to them in Irish??

I don't think I can weigh in on the Caoilfhionn debate. I'll be honest I have only heard of this name recently while looking for Irish girl names. I don't know anyone with this name

@Number3BigCupOfTea

If you're worried about ''you made that up'' accusations then Eabha with nn Eabhin is lovely. Little Eva

We can't do this I don't think because of the caol le caol agus leathan le leathan rule. It would be nice but there has to be 2 slender vowels either side of the bh

Lizzie when I say the English word keel like the bottom of a boat my mouth is a completely different shape to when I say the Irish word caol. If you listen on teanglann you might hear the difference. They sound completely different to me anyway. More like qui-ul or qui-ul and I can't think of a way of writing the Munster way. Kwee-lin or Queelin would be a bit closer.

Sean when I say the sadness at the loss of the language it's both sounds and grammar and sounds indicating grammar. Cuir is said like it's some like of hound, and so is chuir which is even worse. Chuaigh is said as cúig, leabhar and leabhair are pronounced the same, the plural of the tuiseal ginideach is being lost e.g. praising the team and praising the teams seem to be used interchangeably. Atá when it should be a bhfuil and so on. I often hear speakers that are much more fluent than I am, much wider vocabulary at the tip of their tongues and so on, on RnaG with no regard for feminine and masculine words, ch as a sound, gh as a sound, no palatization for plurals or the TG, no séimhiú for the TG, no urú or séimhiú for prepositions when required. Trí is said like it's a large plant that grows in forests, cré is said like it should end in fish and I don't know what else. And people will swear blind those pronunciations are right and that's what they learned in school (learned cur for cuir and chuir myself so I get it, doesn't make it right) and that it's what everyone says and it's down to dialect.

I do see that languages become more standardised and simplified which is fine, but I feel the loss of the sounds are more due to Irish being learned mainly by English speakers and using English approximations for Irish sounds that don't exist in English.

I heard a woman on the radio sometime before Christmas reporting from New England somewhere. Possibly Covid, possibly New York. No problem to her to use her Irish sounds though she has a clear American accent. I don't see anything wrong with speaking Irish in your own accent - heard a lovely Dublin accent (not the D4 accent) recently enough too, again with good pronunciation of individual sounds and accurate Irish.

Sorry to derail so much, OP.

[quote nothingseasy]@Number3BigCupOfTea

If you're worried about ''you made that up'' accusations then Eabha with nn Eabhin is lovely. Little Eva

We can't do this I don't think because of the caol le caol agus leathan le leathan rule. It would be nice but there has to be 2 slender vowels either side of the bh[/quote]
We were thinking it might still mean little Eve if we went with Éibhín because of the word for bird in irish being éan which has a braod vowel a before the constant so when you say little bird you change it to an i to make éinín.

logically it we were hoping that it would work the same for Éibhín

I think it was St Enda Apileofballyhoo. I think I say Caoilfhionn as you do too.
As for the spelling of Caoilfhionn/Caolfhionn and Aobhfhinn/Aoibhinn, I'm not sure. Yes they are compound words as you say, or they were originally, and as such don't have to follow the caol le caol, leathan le leathan rules. But those spellings where they do follow the rules have been around a long time, so I don't think they're necessarily errors by people who didn't know when the rules shouldn't apply. It's probable that both forms were used? Do you know what Ó Corráin says about Caolfhionn/Caoilfhionn SeanChailleach? It doesn't help that caoil and caol sound very similar in some dialects and not in others...it could have added to the spelling challenge.
I don't think you'd have to write to them in Irish OP. Or maybe just the greeting and thank yous?

I suppose it's a bit like the various ways of saying Caoimhe Apile of Ballyhoo, which begins with Quee for me (sort of), but Kee for others.

@Apileofballyhoo

Lizzie when I say the English word keel like the bottom of a boat my mouth is a completely different shape to when I say the Irish word caol. If you listen on teanglann you might hear the difference. They sound completely different to me anyway. More like qui-ul or qui-ul and I can't think of a way of writing the Munster way. Kwee-lin or Queelin would be a bit closer.

Sean when I say the sadness at the loss of the language it's both sounds and grammar and sounds indicating grammar. Cuir is said like it's some like of hound, and so is chuir which is even worse. Chuaigh is said as cúig, leabhar and leabhair are pronounced the same, the plural of the tuiseal ginideach is being lost e.g. praising the team and praising the teams seem to be used interchangeably. Atá when it should be a bhfuil and so on. I often hear speakers that are much more fluent than I am, much wider vocabulary at the tip of their tongues and so on, on RnaG with no regard for feminine and masculine words, ch as a sound, gh as a sound, no palatization for plurals or the TG, no séimhiú for the TG, no urú or séimhiú for prepositions when required. Trí is said like it's a large plant that grows in forests, cré is said like it should end in fish and I don't know what else. And people will swear blind those pronunciations are right and that's what they learned in school (learned cur for cuir and chuir myself so I get it, doesn't make it right) and that it's what everyone says and it's down to dialect.

I do see that languages become more standardised and simplified which is fine, but I feel the loss of the sounds are more due to Irish being learned mainly by English speakers and using English approximations for Irish sounds that don't exist in English.

I heard a woman on the radio sometime before Christmas reporting from New England somewhere. Possibly Covid, possibly New York. No problem to her to use her Irish sounds though she has a clear American accent. I don't see anything wrong with speaking Irish in your own accent - heard a lovely Dublin accent (not the D4 accent) recently enough too, again with good pronunciation of individual sounds and accurate Irish.

Sorry to derail so much, OP.

no it's fine, don't worry. I think we have hit a bit of an impasse anyway. Feel free to discuss any language/name topics x

I know what you mean about not having the sounds in English. It does baffle me that some English people can't say the seemingly simplest of Irish words. Some of my friends just can't say Fionn and it so odd to me. They just can't get their mouths to create the sound. I think that is why I thought ay-veen might be good, doesn't really require any special mouth accent.
Like I said before we were considering Fiadh as well but I've had a few friends say it and it just doesn't sound right in an English accent. Some words do just need an Irish tongue

I think I say qwee.. for Caoimhe. Is that right?

Many Irish people can't say the sounds either OP. I agree so much about them being lost ApileofBallyhoo but thought it was confined to the schools - I didn't realise it had extended to RnaG ( which I really should start listening to again). The standard among teachers (in English language schools at least) is poor, or it is in our school anyway, so the children have no hope of picking up the correct sounds. Seesaw was a bit of an eye opener in that regard I'm afraid.
My Irish isn't the best, so I know it can be hard, but pronunciation is fundamental imo.