Irish names help!

[nothingseasy]

Hiya,
I'm calling out to all Irish speakers please.

I want to call my baby Ayveen In Irish. I've established from other threads that it's not Aoibheann or Aoibhinn or anything beginning with Aoi as this makes an ee sound. However nobody can conclusively say how it should be spelled.

I'd like to know what letters (diphthong/triphthong) make the aye/ay sound I am looking for. Do they exist in Irish?

Alternatives I've seen are

Éabhaoin
Éimhín
Aibhín

I personally favour the Aibhín but does ai in Irish make the sound ay?

Please help it's driving me mad!!

We are living in England and I want to keep a connection to my Irish heritage so I want an Irish name. We have trawled through them all and this is the only one we liked so when we found out it wasn't even said right we were devastated.

Please don't tell me not to bother with an Irish name in England or that I shouldn't give it an Irish name because they will have trouble e.t.c.

Help resolving the spelling is really all I am after.

Thank you x

@aplo

I teach two different girls called Ayveen One spells it Éimhín and the other Aoibhínn

The í is the important part for me to distinguish between these girls and Aoibhinn (ay-vin) and Aoibheann (ay-van) who I also teach!

That's hilarious aplo. Three Aoibhinn/Aoibheann, none said the same, one with a fada thrown in, and all of them Ay and not í at the beginning.

Other people are obviously not as worried as you about getting it right, nothings! It certainly isn't easy!

@Apileofballyhoo I know- I would instinctively say Ee / í for Aoi so had to learn all of these.
I also teach and Aoibhe (Eva) and Aoibhe (Ava) and have a niece called Éabha (ay- va)

It's a bit of a mess all right aplo. It must be difficult remembering who's using which pronunciation!

Regarding the variations in the various types of Munster Irish, Apileofballyhoo, I've read that the biggest difference is between the Irish of An Déise and the others. In general, though, the differences between Munster Irish dialects are less than between the Connacht dialects, I believe. There's useful information given by Jonas in this discussion here.

www.daltai.com/discus/messages/12465/12484.html?1092244906

OP, would www.irishlanguageforum.com be able to help you perhaps? Might it be worth posting? There are native speakers on there who've already contributed to a discussion on Aoibhinn vs Aoibhín, though it was a few years ago now, and the discussion was about spelling, not pronunciation.

I've read that the biggest difference is between the Irish of An Déise and the others. I always feel it should be on teanglann, Lizzie. They must be a tough breed sticking to their language when they weren't as isolated as the other Gaeltachtaí (there's another word that doesn't follow l le l 7 c l c). I'll have a read of that link now, thanks for posting.

Yes, I think 'ae' is treated as a broad vowel. It's the same in laethanta and a few more anyway.

That was a very interesting read, Lizzie, thanks.

Glad you liked it

An chéad rud do scríobhas, b'é go raibh daoine ag scríobh an tuisil ainmnigh, ach ag rá an tuisil ginidigh nó gairmigh. Ach do scríobhas
"Dia duit a hAoibhinn!"
Tá cearr ansin. Seo mar is ceart é a scríobh:
"Dia duit a Aoibhinn!"

Ní dheirtear an páirteagail "a", cé. Deirtear "Dia duit 'Aoibhinn." B'fhéidir "Dia duit a' Bhinn" fiú? Níl a fhios agam ach má is éa é, titeann an béim go difriúil, agus athraíonn an fuaim. Bíonn an i fada leis an -nn.

Is é an fhoirm ghinideach: "Aoibhne" de réir Woulfe, ach do scríobhas-sa "Aoibhinn" gan scrúdú. Níl foclóir nó leabhair gramadaigh le fáil lena foirmeacha do ainmneacha pearsanta.

Smaoiním, fiú, b'fhéidir "Aeife" an tuiseal ainmneach, agus díochlaonta mar "Éire", anseo sa tSean-Ghaeilge:

Aeife is ainm di. Nominative
Tá áthas ar Aeifinn. accusative/dative
Dia duit a Aeifinn! Vocative
Mac Aeifeann. Genitive

Cosúil le Bricriú, Deirdre, Ériu.

Faoi deireadh, is ainm ea. Ní oibreoidh ainmneach pearsanta mar ghnáth -fhocail.

Deirtear gur ainm Meiriceánach í "Erin" cé nach bhfuil iontu ach Béarlú claontuisil í. Rud éigin mar seo dul ar aghaidh anseo b'fhéidir?

B'fhéidir!

I hadn't thought about names changing according to case. Did this fall out of practice? Do we only use the vocative case now, eg 'Tabhair dom é, a Mháire?'

I was thinking of the name Béibhinn recently. Would one say 'Bayvin' or 'Bayveen'? I would go with the latter. It's also a nice name. I must look up the meaning.

Modern Irish doesn't slenderize for female names in the vocative, I don't know about old Irish. Or are you saying native speakers slenderize in speech, Sean? I can't say I've heard it but I can't say I would have noticed in times I have been in the Gaeltacht, but it's not something I have been listening for iyswim, on R na G either.

@aplo

I teach two different girls called Ayveen One spells it Éimhín and the other Aoibhínn

The í is the important part for me to distinguish between these girls and Aoibhinn (ay-vin) and Aoibheann (ay-van) who I also teach!

Oh gosh this must be so confusing!

@LizzieAnt

It's a bit of a mess all right aplo. It must be difficult remembering who's using which pronunciation!

Regarding the variations in the various types of Munster Irish, Apileofballyhoo, I've read that the biggest difference is between the Irish of An Déise and the others. In general, though, the differences between Munster Irish dialects are less than between the Connacht dialects, I believe. There's useful information given by Jonas in this discussion here.

www.daltai.com/discus/messages/12465/12484.html?1092244906

OP, would www.irishlanguageforum.com be able to help you perhaps? Might it be worth posting? There are native speakers on there who've already contributed to a discussion on Aoibhinn vs Aoibhín, though it was a few years ago now, and the discussion was about spelling, not pronunciation.

Thanks, I'll check it out x

@SeanChailleach

An chéad rud do scríobhas, b'é go raibh daoine ag scríobh an tuisil ainmnigh, ach ag rá an tuisil ginidigh nó gairmigh. Ach do scríobhas "Dia duit a hAoibhinn!" Tá cearr ansin. Seo mar is ceart é a scríobh: "Dia duit a Aoibhinn!"

Ní dheirtear an páirteagail "a", cé. Deirtear "Dia duit 'Aoibhinn." B'fhéidir "Dia duit a' Bhinn" fiú? Níl a fhios agam ach má is éa é, titeann an béim go difriúil, agus athraíonn an fuaim. Bíonn an i fada leis an -nn.

Is é an fhoirm ghinideach: "Aoibhne" de réir Woulfe, ach do scríobhas-sa "Aoibhinn" gan scrúdú. Níl foclóir nó leabhair gramadaigh le fáil lena foirmeacha do ainmneacha pearsanta.

Smaoiním, fiú, b'fhéidir "Aeife" an tuiseal ainmneach, agus díochlaonta mar "Éire", anseo sa tSean-Ghaeilge:

Aeife is ainm di. Nominative
Tá áthas ar Aeifinn. accusative/dative
Dia duit a Aeifinn! Vocative
Mac Aeifeann. Genitive

Cosúil le Bricriú, Deirdre, Ériu.

Faoi deireadh, is ainm ea. Ní oibreoidh ainmneach pearsanta mar ghnáth -fhocail.

Deirtear gur ainm Meiriceánach í "Erin" cé nach bhfuil iontu ach Béarlú claontuisil í. Rud éigin mar seo dul ar aghaidh anseo b'fhéidir?

Sorry could anyone translate this?

@IsFuzzyBeagMise

B'fhéidir!

I hadn't thought about names changing according to case. Did this fall out of practice? Do we only use the vocative case now, eg 'Tabhair dom é, a Mháire?'

I was thinking of the name Béibhinn recently. Would one say 'Bayvin' or 'Bayveen'? I would go with the latter. It's also a nice name. I must look up the meaning.

yes I like this name too but unfortunately my partner doesn't :( I think if it was just up to me I'd leave "ay-veen" behind and move on.

I love....
Shea
Bláithín
Síofra
Saoirse
Fiadh
Ríona

however, my partner doesn't really want anything but Éibhín/Aibhín/Aiveen/.... e.t.c.....

Even though I've explained all the difficulties with it!!

I like many Irish names, @nothingseasy, though not all of them. We called our son Eoin; one Irish name out of three :) I think there is a lot to be said for keeping names as straightforward as possible. While I like Aobhinn, the complexities of the pronunciation would put me off using it. My father-in-law at the time I was expecting, used to say to me, 'just choose something we can pronounce!'

Síofra, Ríona, Clíona, Róisín, Bláithín, Aoife, Éabha are lovely names, I think. And there are others too, I'm sure.

@IsFuzzyBeagMise

I like many Irish names, *@nothingseasy*, though not all of them. We called our son Eoin; one Irish name out of three :) I think there is a lot to be said for keeping names as straightforward as possible. While I like Aobhinn, the complexities of the pronunciation would put me off using it. My father-in-law at the time I was expecting, used to say to me, 'just choose something we can pronounce!'

Síofra, Ríona, Clíona, Róisín, Bláithín, Aoife, Éabha are lovely names, I think. And there are others too, I'm sure.

Yeah I wan't to try pick an easy one to say even if you can't read it from the spelling. Thats why I don't really want Fiadh because English people say it like fear or Thea. Bláithín, I think needs an Irish tongue as well but some of the others are okay Ríona, Róisín even Síofra and Éibhín, aren't really hard to say just hard to read from the spelling.

I do want it as easy as possible but I need to satisfy my want for an Irish name and my partners and having it easy enough!! It's a tall order!

How does anyone name a human, it's so hard!

Eibhin

You will get there in the end. It does take a lot of thought.

Sorry op. I think with these puzzling names, putting our Irish heads on to think about them helps. What I said was, in my first post I suggested that although people are recording the nominative form as the name, perhaps what they are saying is a different grammatical form.

Then I realised I made a mistake saying the vocative particle prefixes h to vowels. It doesn't, it's blended into the vowel. That affects the weight of the syllables, making finn longer.
That lead me to think what if mums guessed at the declension and put Aeife with Éire, ábha, and Deirdre which had -inn endings in Old Irish. Most personal names aren't included in the dictionary and the books of names don't give you all the forms. And anyway, people mixed up declensions in the 5th century just as we do today. That would be an alternative etymology and points to Aeifinn as a possible spelling, which is elegant.
My "Aobh-Fhinn" theory is the strongest for the pronunciation I think.
I think names don't work like ordinary words, and if you want the sound Aiveen there has to be a way to spell it in Irish.
Someone was wondering upthread if it was a modern invented name but no, it's absolutely ancient and there were several princesses with the name according to Maguire and Ó Corráin's book.

Do you think that the old name Aeifinn may have become interchangeable over time with the adjective 'aoibheann' and that form of the name, Aoibheann/Aoibhinn Sean?

Sean are you saying female names are slenderized in speech? Or were in old Irish?

@SeanChailleach

Sorry op. I think with these puzzling names, putting our Irish heads on to think about them helps. What I said was, in my first post I suggested that although people are recording the nominative form as the name, perhaps what they are saying is a different grammatical form.

Then I realised I made a mistake saying the vocative particle prefixes h to vowels. It doesn't, it's blended into the vowel. That affects the weight of the syllables, making finn longer.
That lead me to think what if mums guessed at the declension and put Aeife with Éire, ábha, and Deirdre which had -inn endings in Old Irish. Most personal names aren't included in the dictionary and the books of names don't give you all the forms. And anyway, people mixed up declensions in the 5th century just as we do today. That would be an alternative etymology and points to Aeifinn as a possible spelling, which is elegant.
My "Aobh-Fhinn" theory is the strongest for the pronunciation I think.
I think names don't work like ordinary words, and if you want the sound Aiveen there has to be a way to spell it in Irish.
Someone was wondering upthread if it was a modern invented name but no, it's absolutely ancient and there were several princesses with the name according to Maguire and Ó Corráin's book.

That's fine, I like that you can talk to each other in Irish and I'm sure it does help with figuring this all out. It annoys me that I don't have a better handle on the language. I wish I could read it and speak it better.

I think the Aobh-Fhinn theory seems to make sense to me. Is the Aobh in Aobh-Fhinn is pronounced Ayv?

I think I need to get that book!

@Apileofballyhoo I am not saying the feminine nouns were slenderised in the vocative, no. I didn't check at all and I am hazy on the vocative.

Ah right, I was wondering because I thought you were saying that's where the ín sound might have come from. Afaik the 'a' is always to be said in speech in 'a Sheáin, a Mháire'.

Oh I see, no, what I mean is because with names you use the vocative a lot, and Aébfhinn starts with a vowel, the spoken rhythm of the word is altered, and the beat maybe shifts from Aéb to Finn.