Irish names help!

[nothingseasy]

Hiya,
I'm calling out to all Irish speakers please.

I want to call my baby Ayveen In Irish. I've established from other threads that it's not Aoibheann or Aoibhinn or anything beginning with Aoi as this makes an ee sound. However nobody can conclusively say how it should be spelled.

I'd like to know what letters (diphthong/triphthong) make the aye/ay sound I am looking for. Do they exist in Irish?

Alternatives I've seen are

Éabhaoin
Éimhín
Aibhín

I personally favour the Aibhín but does ai in Irish make the sound ay?

Please help it's driving me mad!!

We are living in England and I want to keep a connection to my Irish heritage so I want an Irish name. We have trawled through them all and this is the only one we liked so when we found out it wasn't even said right we were devastated.

Please don't tell me not to bother with an Irish name in England or that I shouldn't give it an Irish name because they will have trouble e.t.c.

Help resolving the spelling is really all I am after.

Thank you x

That's interesting SeanChailleach. Yes. I would have said 'nay' for 'naoi' and 'fwayn tuath' for 'faoin tuath'. (Munster Irish).

Omg @SeanChailleach 🙈🙈 so Aoibheann can work 🤣🤣

🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯

Although @SeanChailleach I've never heard Faoi pronounced like that Munster dialect, ever!

Éabha is an established name gan amhras ar bith, and I don't see why you shouldn't use a diminutive of it. I figure the correct spelling of it would be Éibhín, giving the meaning of little Eve. I'm basing this on the diminutive of other éa words, e.g. éan, éinín, béal, béilín. I did find some Éaibhín names on Google but it doesn't seem right tbh. There seems to be a few Éibhíns around too.

I've looked to see if I can find any pronunciation of 'ai' as ay and the only thing I can find is aidhm, pronounced aim and meaning aim in Ulster (it's pronounced like 'I'm' in the other dialects). But Ulster doesn't pronounce similarly spelled words the same way e.g. snaidhm isn't sname. Mostly it's an 'i' sound like in aghaidh (face) or an ee sound.

Ailís Eilís, anyone? I've seen Aedín/Étaín/Éadaoin anglicised Aideen. So I suspect the ai is an anglicised thing.

The old Irish thing is interesting - the ae and the ao having the same root so to speak - ao is ay in Munster but ee in Connacht so ae=ao in Munster ok. Throw an i in at the end and you're back to ee.

SeanChailleach meant to say I don't think female names get slenderised in the vocative.

Thank you so much @SeanChailleach this is amazing evidence!

I can use these to remove my mental block against the Aoibhín and Aoibheann Aoibhinn names 🙏🏻🙏🏻

I was kinda getting used to Éibhín though 🤣

The spellings given at www.teanglann.ie are the standard spellings though! Faoi was always spelled as fé in Munster, for example, until the Caighdéan Oifigiúil. The speaker that says gaoil in that link says duine gaoil differently. If you look up 'teach' in Munster you'll hear 'tigh', because that's how it's said there, no matter what the spelling standard says these days. So the pronunciation was reflected in the old spelling, but not necessarily in the new one.

I suppose it can be both then ay or ee sound depending on where your from.

@Apileofballyhoo thanks, yes I was thinking of the Éan éinín thing and it was swinging it for me towards Éibhín

I like Éibhín. I said that earlier and flip-flopped to Aibhín

Choose the name you like that will work best. It's a personal choice in the end of the day.

I suppose it still is an issue using Aoibhinn because every dialect seems to pronounce it with an ee sound..🤔🤔🤔🤔

www.teanglann.ie/en/fuaim/aoibhinn

Don't worry @IsFuzzyBeagMise I'm flip flopping all the time!! Keep changing my mind!

The more evidence the better though👍🏼

I'd just go for Éabhín, If I read that, I'd say ayveen in my head.
I'm Irish but I wouldn't know if you'd created that name or not.
If it's not a name, it seems like it should be!

I think there will always be variation with Aobhinn/Aoibheann between regional differences and personal opinions on the name.

If you're worried about ''you made that up'' accusations then Eabha with nn Eabhin is lovely. Little Eva

@nothingseasy

Don't worry *@IsFuzzyBeagMise* I'm flip flopping all the time!! Keep changing my mind!

The more evidence the better though👍🏼

It's getting a good thrashing out here anyway

Those teanglann links are interesting - I can definitely hear the 'i' sound at the end of the Munster ones for Naomi, like nay-i and gao-il. I've seen faoi spelled as fé, I suspect that got dumped for the Caighdeán. I think for Aoibheann/Aoibhinn if you accept the ay sound at the beginning is a possibility for a native Munster speaker you'd have to make Ay-iv out of it. But then I would say something more like É-ah-va for Éabha rather than Ava, and Nee-ev for Niamh rather than Neeve.

Someone saying 'fay'for faoi in Munster would have spelt that fé until relatively recently. It's not that they're pronouncing 'aoi' as 'ay', in that case at least. It's that a spelling standard was thrust upon them and the spellings/pronunciations now don't match.

I have a Welsh name in England, my Mam's a native Welsh speaker. Pronunciation from others can be dodgy, the spellings even more so. Like your relatives in America, I like having a name which reflects my heritage.

Brace yourself for some rude comments though OP - my Dad's mother actually rang him to complain when told my name! We've had comments from doctor's receptionists, school teachers etc. along the lines of 'what kind of a name is that?' or a refusal to attempt to learn how to say or spell it. My Mam gets quite irate sometimes!

That said, I went to school with a Caoimhe and we all learnt how to say and spell it pretty quickly.

Whichever way you end up spelling it, Ay-veen is a gorgeous name.

@LizzieAnt

"Someone saying 'fay'for faoi in Munster would have spelt that fé until relatively recently. It's not that they're pronouncing 'aoi' as 'ay', in that case at least. It's that a spelling standard was thrust upon them and the spellings/pronunciations now don't match."

Oh🤔

What do u think about the other examples?

@CaffiSaliMali

Thanks you

I am ready! whatever I go for will be controversial one way or another!

I see what u mean about the spelling is this taobh or taoibh?

Taoibh is the possessive form of taobh. The example they give there is snámh taoibh, sidestroke.

I have a feeling that the speaker saying gaoil may actually be pronouncing the variant gaol. People pronounce the word they use, and don't pay too much attention to what the Caighdeán says the spelling should be. If you look you'll see that duine gaoil is said differently.
I'm not really sure about naoi tbh. As a general rule, ao is often 'ay' in Munster, but adding an i changes the sound to more like 'ee'. Though to be fair there's a bit of a hint of a richer (dare I say ay) sound in there too sometimes, depending on the word and the speaker. Not really the sound you're looking for though.

@LizzieAnt

The spellings given at www.teanglann.ie are the standard spellings though! Faoi was always spelled as fé in Munster, for example, until the Caighdéan Oifigiúil. The speaker that says gaoil in that link says duine gaoil differently. If you look up 'teach' in Munster you'll hear 'tigh', because that's how it's said there, no matter what the spelling standard says these days. So the pronunciation was reflected in the old spelling, but not necessarily in the new one.

Your absolutely right and I should have spotted that. I do think they've done an amazing thing with teanglann.ie and there are bound to be limitations to it. I don't think we have to stop using dialectal spellings: I'm pretty sure the intention of the Caighdeán was basically so that official documents used an agreed set of spellings and the reason it's a right mish-mash was specifically to give all dialects equal status. Which is a whole other discussion.

But yes OP LizzieAnt is right, these ones are anomolies for a reason.

Yes, I absolutely love teanglann.ie too SeanChailleach
The Caighdeán is used in all the schools so it's widespread. I'm not a huge fan tbh, though I know it serves a purpose, but you're right, that's a whole other discussion.
I agree there would be no harm in looking further afield for information Apileofballyhoo. I think we need help

I never heard Aoibheann/Aoibhinn pronounced as Ay-veen myself so I thought it must be a new thing and probably a mistake that became popular. Like Emer being universally pronounced Ee-mer. But you get all sorts of youneek spellings and pronunciations in names now, in both English and Irish. I once put my foot in it with someone who had named their baby Keelin. Lovely, I said, I I never heard Aoibheann/Aoibhinn pronounced as Ay-veen myself so I thought it must be a new thing and probably a mistake that became popular. But you get all sorts of youneek spellings and pronunciations in names now, in both English and Irish. I once put my foot in it with someone who had named their baby Keelin. Lovely, I said, I never heard that before (thinking it was something like Kylie). Oh it's Irish, came the reply, and as I it's lovely, I'd never heard it, I was told it's spelled C-A-O-L-F-H-I-O-N-N. Light dawned and without thinking I said a big Oh! Caolfhionn! I felt very awkward and wished the ground would swallow me up to be honest.

But you'll get people swearing blind that their name is, or their cousin's/mother's/daughter's name is, and it's pronounced Keelin and that's how everyone says it that they know and that's how it has been since the year dot, and their aunt went to a gaelscoil, and their parents are fluent speakers and they spent every single summer in the Gaeltacht and that's how it is in their dialect. At most you'll get someone who might grudgingly admit it might be different in your dialect. That actually annoys me more.

Anyway it's all part of the sadness of the language being lost.

heard that before (thinking it was something like Kylie). Oh it's Irish, came the reply, and as I repeated it's lovely, I've never heard it, I was told it's spelled C-A-O-L-F-H-I-O-N-N. Light dawned and without thinking I said a big Oh! Caolfhionn! I felt very awkward and wished the ground would swallow me up to be honest.

But you'll get people swearing blind that their name is, or their cousin's/mother's/daughter's name is, and it's pronounced Keelin and that's how everyone says it that they know and that's how it has been since the year dot, and their aunt went to a gaelscoil, and their parents are fluent speakers and they spent every single summer in the Gaeltacht and that's how it is in their dialect. At most you'll get someone who might grudgingly admit it might be different in your dialect. That actually annoys me more.

Anyway it's all part of the sadness of the language being lost. I'll end my little rant.