Pkease come with your sugestions to MN for a new forum for us. A gentle discusion on where we can ask to go...

[misty0]

After the stress caused by a debate raised on termination in the middle of what was being used as a support forum - i feel we should ask Mumsnet for a new place for ladies to go to support each other following termination. Without discussion and debate of ethics or morals likely to cause distress.

I would like this thread to be nonconfrontational - i am just reaching out for ideas for a new place for us and how best to name it?

Hello peachy, what does an opt in mean and how does it work? thanks.

Exactly manitz.

Also, have no problem with people genuinely wanting information; the only good thing to come out of my experience is the ability to inform and support others that are facing similar heartache. But there is a world of difference between asking for information and imposing views upon others, which is unfortunately what has happened in this instance.

That is the whole problem with this; facing termination when you have been given bad antenatal results is a completely abstract thing. It's not a matter of being pro life/ pro choice, (for example I'm pro choice for everyone else, pro life for me, and yet still had to have a termination as my baby would have died in utero within weeks and I had the impact of me miscarrying on my 3 other children to consider). It is about vulnerable women having a place that is sacred. Those wishing have their 5 minutes on a moral soap box have the whole of the rest of MN to do. Geniune questions are always welcome and answered, but I am afraid that in this case a need for knowledge IS NOT as important as a need to nuture and care.

I truly am dismayed that Mumsnet are being so insensitive. I think misty's solution is a really valid one. It simply is not appropriate to have people speculating, passing judgement and generally having a lively debate with all the ignorance that has come with it (from people with healthy babies it has to be said) when people are coming to this board for help, advice and guidance to make life changing decisions. As I've said before, I'm all for a bit of healthy discussion but this, quite literally, is a matter of life or death. As much as I have been upset by this thread (I am 12 weeks on from termination) the impact of threads like this one is far more wide reaching- it may seriously affect and impact those who are making the decisions at the time- therefore the solution of moving the support thread simply does not work, does it?

Oops x posted with peachy and manitz again!

manitz when people sign up fort MN (and at any time in the future that they choose) they are amde aware that Sn exists but is a safe area; and they tick the box to acknowledge that if they wish to see the threads. Once done, it is permanent and threads show in active comvos but initially it's a conscious choice.

It does mean we sometimes ahve to gently oush people towards the srea initially, eg if they post in behaviour and development, but that's not hard and there are sadly enough main board posters who will have posted in the sensitive areas that it happens fairly fluidly.

In the bad old days, threads from SN would show in active convos; that had a certain upside, I am not sure if many newbies realise how active the SN board is now so forget to bear us in mind as it were, but we had a few very upsetting incidents and something ahd to be done; trolls as well as people missing the fact a thread was in Sn and accusing the OP of all sorts.

Of those on a 'moral sopabox' as it were, i recognised most of those from the SN boards, some facing the knowledge that their chidlren ahve extremly severe disorders so I would argue they are equally as vulnerable; hence the thread being a disaster for all concerned. Nobody should have to come on MN and leave upset when they were looking for support. Especially those from the sections that nobody in their right mind would ever want to have to post in.

MyAngelAva (what a beautiful name btw, very moving) can I sk what you would suggest?

I know for a fact that a mum of a child who has ahd very abd news regarding her child was terribly upset by the thread being in chat, that's one reason why people suggested here- I know that threads such as that upsetting those living with disabilities was a factor when this was set up. It was very badly needed from a variety of angles.

But there's no excuse whatsoever for upsetting people here either; I don;t think anyone did on the other thread, not intentionally, I know the lady who requested the move quite well and she has a very severely Sn DD so certianly wasn't in the camp of people with healthy babies.

There HAS to be a solution that can protect all groups, no?

So .... am i right .... opting in would mean : general debate and all the usual ect would be available to all at all times - but you'd have to opt in to find support forums.

If thats right then i'm thinking that would make support harder to find/less likely to be taken up for new ladies coming off the pregnancy forum than even moving us to 'body and soul' would. (which i sugested last at first but have now decided is a crap idea!)

I dont think i would have found my support thread if it hadnt been 'there' while i was asking about CVS. I wouldnt have searched for it. Many would, i know, but i know i wouldnt be the only one to have gone without if i'd had to 'opt in'. Sorry Peachy - i know we're all working towards the same goal here xx

I would have thought opting in to the potentialy hurtful debate forums would be more sensible?

Or have i got it backwards?

the thing is that encountering threads on sensitive subjects is unavoidable on a public forum.

The poster who requested the thread be moved to this section does herself have a child with severe sn so i think it's a bit unfair to suggest that anyone with opposing views is talking from the perspective of their own healthy babies.

On the thread requesting the move I did suggest (and some agreed) that this wasn't the best topic to move the thread to but equally I don't think it should be moved to off the beaten track as that doesn't show up in active convos and therefore the topic wouldn't essentially be open to debate, and it is a valid discussion, regardless of what side you're on.

I agree it shouldn't have been moved here but I don't think that such discussions should simply be killed - there are parents of children with sn who feel judged for keeping their disabled children just as there are people who have had terminations who feel judged for the decisions they have made.

Argh MN crashed and lost my reply!

yes you have it right but it's worked becuase people are amde aware early on, and it's quite possible to have the rpesence of the area flagged up on the top bar of ANC, as a message is in AIBU. I ahve yet to see the Sn board suffer issues from ebing hidden but we have seen a drop in trolling (intentional and otherwise).

I seriously doubt asking MN not to feature these debates is an option (is that what soemne wanted? Sorry PC playing up- can;t find names). Been here a decade and yet to see MN take such a stance on anything.

It may be that a general topics thread within politics is the answer; threads could be shifted there on request. Certainly this is not a new occurence- there was a debate in chat a while back where a eugencist turned up to tell us all our children should have been killed at birth; that thread should IMO have been moved to a safer area than chat. Chat is about having a break / laugh no?

off The Beaten track is potentially useful but how many people go there? Not me but I am established in my habits; maybe newer people do?

It may be a different approach completely is needed. Maybe MN should change the colour of potetially contentious chat threads to red after being made aware of them, as a warning? Then those of us who feel vulnerable can move away, and if not we can go in. Becuase sometimes I feel stronger and then I think my experiences are worth sharing- and sometimes I am not up to it (for those who do not know I have 4 boys- ds1 ASD; ds2- dyspraxia, some ADD; ds3 was given very HR DS results, clear, developed fairly severe ASD; ds4 was referred to CDC for ASD tests last week). I guess that's the same for anyone of us, longer term anyway?

First off, a quck hijack - Hello Bee - so lovely to hear from you, though sorry it's under these circumstances. I was just thinking of you yesterday, as I often do. I was reluctant to mention your name here and bring you into it, just in case you would have preferred me not to. I should have known better though. You have always been there when needed - magically appearing at the right time, with just the right thing to say. I'll never forget how much you helped me through some scary times. I've printed off the posts from when Bella was born, and have them in her album so even she'll know about the support I received from you, along with others here, when she grows up. None of which would have been possible without you. I've missed you, and hope you are well xx

I wish our threads had have been around when I was faced with my decision in '08, as I could not find anywhere appropriate to post back then. Not once I made my decision anyhow. During my decision making process I did post somewhere on another forum, though it wasn't a place I felt I could return to once I started thinking I might terminate. There was one thread, for women who had terminated, on a forum I had briefly seen at one stage, but I couldn't find it again a few weeks later. Didn't want to speak to anyone in RL afterwards, as no one I knew had been in my position. Was offered a counselor, but due to having my trust betrayed by one years earlier, flatly refused the offer. So I had no one who understood (beside DH of course). Fast forward to next pregnancy and highish NT result. That's when I found this place, on the other side of the world, and yet so easy to find, and exactly what I needed. This thread not only saw me through that pregnancy, birth and associated dramas, but also let me offload about my previous pregnancy. It was an absolute lifeline. If however I'd have stumbled across a thread such as that 'other' one here, I would have ran a mile. My point is threads such as ours are needed, they also need to be visible so as easy to find, and they need to be in an area that is seen to be supportive - not alongside threads such as 'that one'

Peachy, I see what you mean, however I just don't think those trying to come to a decision should be subject to a debate on the issue. If they should seek personal opinions I feel it should at least come from those that have lived with either decision.
Actually, I've been thinking that it would be good if there was a permanent link here to the support threads for termination and also a link to the SN section. Maybe I'm just tired though...

I think the issue with moving it here is that this is a place which for many is the exact time that they are struggling to come to terms with a poor diagnosis, and how on earth they make a choice they never wanted to make. I agree that it's valid for the thread to exist, and for people to see it so that those who are in a stronger place or who are further on in their own experience of living through such issues can contribute to the widening of the debate - but it is very hard to be rational and theoretical and not hurt by some of the more polarised comments when it is something that is very, very real in your own life at that precise moment.

I still don't see why an ethical debates section can't exist - surely that is more body and soul than anything? Along the lines of philosophy etc. And as others have suggested, it could inlude debates of all sorts along these lines.

'Actually, I've been thinking that it would be good if there was a permanent link here to the support threads for termination and also a link to the SN section. Maybe I'm just tired though

Sounds very sensible

Id be amazed if Mn stopped debate, it's just never been their plan or ethos. We've ahd close calls over the years after all, what with Gina Ford etc.

FWIW I think pretty much everybody on that thread had lived with the decision one way or another: very many voives I recognised.

Right sorry, got to run- boys breaking up for Easter today. Will check back later and hope we can maybe work together as boards to find a mutually beneficial solution?

Nu,mpty there is a philosophy section but I seriously would avid it as I don;t think mixing this with the religion section is wise (dont get me wrong; my degree is in RE but still, no point causing issues!)

Otherwise though an ethical debates area sounds excellent.

"there are parents of children with sn who feel judged for keeping their disabled children just as there are people who have had terminations who feel judged for the decisions they have made."

But isn't that the problem; as far as I can see generally both sets of parents, (those who've terminated for SN and those who haven't SN) seemed to be quite open and appreciative of both sides of the arguement. It was a few hijackers who fanned the flames.

I have an SN child myself, (which I would not have terminated for, personal choice!), and think it is important to remember quite a few ladies that find themselves on AT&C do so for reasons that have nothing to do with SN; their little ones may have developmental problems, etc. This isn't a SN/ non-SN thing, it's a mums in bloody hard situations type thing and we can all appreciate that.

I really hope the lady you mentioned doesn't feel hounded for asking the thread be moved; she was completely in her rights to do so and no one would object to that I think. It's not her fault that it was moved inappropriately. It is also not her fault that some people are not willing to appreciate there are 2 sides to every story, and every story is different.

Peachy - yes, entirely get your point about philosophy, given it's lumped with religion/spirituality on here.

Must go and attend to the kids!!

Justa - good to see you! Hope your DS (2?) is doing well.

the thing with making a debates section opt in though is that equally, people wouldn't know it existed so would start their debates in chat/other subjects/other parts of active convos.

People wanting to post about sensitive topics would be more likely to opt in to a sensitive area whereas people wanting to debate would be more likely to just start their threads wherever they want. You see it in ibu all the time, for instance where posts clearly don't belong there but as ibu gets the biggest amount of hits that's where they post.

In reality people can hide any thread though regardless of where it is. Fwiw I thought I had this topic hidden but it would seem not.

Hi Misty, I still don't entirely understand. I think the opt in for sn happened after i joined so i didn't get offered it. However from what peachy said I think it means if you opt in you will see it in active convos and if you don't opt in you wont. It would always be there in topics so could be found if you were looking. Is that right peachy?

wannabe. I am not entirely sure why this was moved from chat, i know from reading here that someone whos child was recently dx was upset and wanted it moved. I understand entirely that it must have been very upsetting. However i would understand why it was moved if it had been in SN but if she requested the move because it was in chat and was therefore coming up in active convos a lot and upsetting her then moving to the beaten track would answer her complaint also though it would restrict the debate and valid discussion of the subject (although a lot of people with actual experience were getting too upset to post when i was reading it - so how valid is the discussion?)

btw I do also think it didn't fit with chat that well as it's a very frivolous board. We have suggested mn set up an ethical dilemmas section but mn haven't answered that request.

I am moved to see you here Justa.
Your head pops above the parapet just when it is needed.
I hope your three are providing joy and loveliness in your life.
You were Justabouttheonlyonewhosupportedme who had not herself had a termination. I imagine you probably never would.
This is surely the point.
As Peachy says really; it is about providing solace and mutual support to another woman in need. Whatever that need is.
We live in a society where, praise the Lord, we have choice.
Not always easy to make them but we have them nonetheless.
Compassion and non-judgement and support are so precious.
There is a place on MN for all this.
There will always be voices that clamour to be heard with opinions; I imagine in real life those people would not be so loud, so shouty.
Best to look away and concentrate on your own corner.
That is what is so tricky about a public forum like this; you feel private but you are very much not.
99 percent of the time however, people are respectful.
Would it be an idea to let it simmer down?
And then continue as normal, once it does not feel so scratchy?

wow my post's a bit out of context now. took too long writing. sorry.