Pkease come with your sugestions to MN for a new forum for us. A gentle discusion on where we can ask to go...

[misty0]

After the stress caused by a debate raised on termination in the middle of what was being used as a support forum - i feel we should ask Mumsnet for a new place for ladies to go to support each other following termination. Without discussion and debate of ethics or morals likely to cause distress.

I would like this thread to be nonconfrontational - i am just reaching out for ideas for a new place for us and how best to name it?

I have hesitated to enter this whole debate because it all feels a bit deja vu to me. I can actually see MNHQ's logic, but the problem is that that logic fails to take into account feelings across the whole spectrum of experience here, those who have terminated, those who have continued with pregnancies, those with children with SN. The only people who won't feel attacked by it are those who are conjecturing theoretically on what they would do if they were in the position of finding out their baby had abnormalities. And quite honestly, none of us know how we will react when we find ourselves in that position. These people, imagining how they might feel, clearly have the right to say what they think - the problem is where those words have ended up.
But the support threads must stay here. We have nothing to be ashamed of and no need to hide, and I say that even though I struggle still to admit that I have had 2 terminations, albeit for conditions incompatible with life (which the abstract theorizers seem to find easier to condone). With passing time, the passing judgements become easier to ignore, I think - as Mishta and Shangrila etc have shown. I feel that too - I read 'the thread' and read abstract theorizing that had no power to hurt me. But it does, does hurt in the early raw stages, and for those of you who have recently lost your babies, I suggest we do let the other threads die and focus on supporting people. In the end, we just have to do that, and eventually the theoretical thread will die out.

In case anyone with no experience of the heartache of diagnosis is reading:

Terminating a wanted baby is not like throwing away a product that doesn't work exactly as you wanted it to, or look like you imagined it would. I have terminated twice; in both cases my babies would not have survived life. I saw and held my babies. I will remember them until I die. Losing them has changed the very fabric of who I am. I have since had another baby, and she is beautiful and above all alive, and I treasure her. I am not in any kind of quest for perfection, I just wanted a baby who would be able to live, and not suffocate to death as soon as she was born. And I have not, I think, been judged, nor do I judge other people for their decisions.

I agree with Busierbee; we need to learn to support each other - or, if we do not agree, then at least not judge each other.

Which is why the support threads need to stay, and stay here, as that is what they do.

Hi everyone, I have never ventured onto any of your threads as (thankfully) I have not been in your position and it is not my place to intrude in your safe place and I wish the rest of MN had the sense to keep away too.

A while ago the bereavement threads were attacked too all because someone did'nt like a few comments, threads like these are sensitive as are the people on them, I hate to sound patronising so apologies, it's not fair that these topics are seen as easy targets! MN is supposed to be about support and everyone deserves that regardless of how the situation arose.

As for MN's response... complete cop-out, yet another instance of pleasing the masses who are imposing on threads which no one has to read and are certainly not doing any harm. The people who open these threads knowing full well what is inside and then choosing to attack or report are the ones who have the choice not the ladies who use it as a support network as a result of being forced to terminate a pregnancy for many difficult reasons!

That is why I don't think this should be in AT&C, it's not about choice it is about circumstance!

How about a topic in Body & Soul called something like 'Healing after forced pregnancy loss' or is that too harsh sounding? It's just a term I have heard used by a friend.

Anway I will be off now and leave you to help and support each other. I hope you continue to find a safe haven somewhere here and I wish you the best for the future :)

Hi again,
I think we need to come up with a solution that goes beyond this thread (eg moving it and deleting it in a few days) because this type of discussion does pop up from time to time and we need somewhere for them to go without it causing such hurt and stress and, in truth, currently there is no option that doesn't cause upset.

That said, a debates/discussion forum has always been rejected in the past because people have argued, rightly imho, that the entire Mumsnet board is for discussion. TBH I fear it would lead to ongoing tensions/confusion about what subjects are ok and what aren't and which threads should be housed in the debate topic and which shouldn't.

Could a new forum in the Pregnancy area (as several people have indicated this is the most appropriate place) - Support and coping with termination - be a solution? We could move the existing relevant live threads from Antenatal Tests and Choices in there so it would still feel like home... Let us know what you think...

Hi Justine, i see what you mean but there are different types of debate on mn. I looked at the chat area and there are not many political debates in there nor anywhere else. This could definitely be said to be a political or ethical debate whereas it could be said that 'i'm going to have my feet eaten by fish' or 'no gifts wedding dilemma' are of a different nature. Perhaps the new forum could be called ethical dilemmas or something rather than using the word debate if that is an issue.

I think if you keep the thread here and move the support threads you are missing the point that those who had terminations are often not the ones likely to be upset by this thread. Those that are seeking advice or are awaiting results will still be here as they won't have progressed to the support threads and they are the ones we think are most vulnerable.

Dear Justine
Whilst I know you are trying to do the right thing here for all mumsnetters, can I just remind you historically why this particular area was set up?
When I posted about my termination in the pregnancy section, I was hounded and judged and endured no end of anguish and pain. I needed support, I asked for support, and what I received caused additional upset to me and other women too.
So.. we moved home.
Ante Natal Tests/Choices was created as a safe space for women to support each other when considering testing, when confronting a diagnosis, when choosing to continue a pregnancy with a diagnosed condition, when having chosen to end a pregnancy.
Please do not consider packing our bags off to somewhere else.
Must we shuffle to another place where we are still to be judged, where other posters nod feel they want to look away?
This area has existed for two years with little or no inflammatory comment.
Please do not displace us again.
I feel very strongly that it gives the message that we are somehow at fault, ever so slightly undeserving of support.
This is the place for us to be.
It was created as such.
If others want to post debating the issue, that is their decision.
Do not backtrack here.
Do not move us on.
We have every right to support each other here.
I am sure those with more recent agonising choices will have their own opinion on this.
But I feel it needs to be historically contextualised.
We have had six 'support threads for women who have chosen to terminate'.
Were they all in the wrong home?
Should they all be dislocated?
It is frankly ridiculous to be bullied out at a time when women are at their most raw.

I agree with Manitz, I think an 'ethics' section or 'ethical dilemmas' would be a very appropriate place for debates such as this. MN on the whole is a discussion forum but it is particularly ethical issues which are very sensitive and incur passionately differing opinions. Issues such as euthanasia, termination, eugenics, vaccination, stem cell research, even breastfeeding if in a moral/ethical debate context are going to be inflammatory or upsetting to some. If debates such as this were housed in a specific area then only people wishing to engage in such a debate and therefore somewhat prepared for the differing opinons could visit. A caveat at the top of such a section could also reiterate that such an area is for debate, not support.

I also think it's important to keep the support threads within AT/C for reasons I said earlier and which many other share. AT/C is a journey and those at the beginning of that journey are more likely to find debate threads upsetting as they struggle to come to decisions so even if the support threads were moved, debate threads such as the one in question could be upsetting.

I think there should be a separate topic for choosing to terminate due to problems with the baby that doesn't come under a miscarriage topic.

Ok,

Lets just add the word 'support' somewhere in the 'tests/choices' title, leave us where we are, and make sure no one at MN moves what was obviously a debating kind of thread on here again.

No one has to move and we get a title that fits our precious area better.

Frankly - if/when an upsetting thread appears in chat or anywhere else in the future MN team will just have to deal with it better. Thats what theyre paid for. If we have the word 'support' on our forum hopefully we will be protected.

I'm with you there Misty - we've done nothing wrong so we should have to go anywhere.

And should this happen again, maybe flood the said, distressing thread with the same message, 'This area is for support, not judgement. Please find a more appropriate area.' I'm sure if that pops up 30 or 40 times in a row, even the narrow minded will get the message!

xxx

x posts with Misty!

My OH made that point actually - there is adverstisng all over the MN site, they get paid to run it (even if it was originally set up another way), so they are obliged to sort any problems out surely?

Obviously not though, eh?

xxx

Another vote for staying put. I agree about the 'ethical dilemmas' section too - agree it could be confusing as to what went where, but, let's face it, already threads about breastfeeding are almost everywhere, so that confusion is nothing new.

TBH I feel a fraud commenting as like Mishta said somewhere else, I am unaffected by people's opinions on termination by now. But newly raw people are not, and particularly those undergoing testing and looking for support right now. I think the best thing for us is to ignore threads that seek to judge us and just carry on supporting new people and each other.

Dearest Cantdo and Mishta
You are decidedly not frauds.
You have offered support, comfort and wise words to many women over the years. You have passed through this space; it is a tribute to the power of our haven that we still come back and support the women who are freshly arrived here. I know that when I was so raw, I did not have the confidence or strength to fight my corner on my own.
We are here to help give them that sense of self respect and dignity.
Do not move our haven.
Bee xxx

I post rarely but read frequently and have received so much support from the AT/C area. Almost two years on from our own experience, and I still feel an almost compulsive need to follow the threads. Please, MNHQ, leave these support threads where they are. This outlet, set up by Busier Bee, was quite literally the only place where I found any kind of understanding and support in the first months after my termination. Without it, you make a truly horrendous time even worse.

@misty0

Ok,

Lets just add the word 'support' somewhere in the 'tests/choices' title, leave us where we are, and make sure no one at MN moves what was obviously a debating kind of thread on here again.

No one has to move and we get a title that fits our precious area better.

I'm afraid though, that's not really a solution. It works for some but not all - many folks wanted the original thread moved into AT&C because it's painful for them to stumble across it on the general chat boards. That's why we moved it. As said already, there isn't an answer to this that works for everyone as things currently stand and we need a new solution.

@Katerina100

I post rarely but read frequently and have received so much support from the AT/C area. Almost two years on from our own experience, and I still feel an almost compulsive need to follow the threads. Please, MNHQ, leave these support threads where they are. This outlet, set up by Busier Bee, was quite literally the only place where I found any kind of understanding and support in the first months after my termination. Without it, you make a truly horrendous time even worse.

Please don't think of it as "moving" the support threads - to all intents and purposes they won't be moved - it's merely a question of re-jigging the descriptions to avoid this kind of upset in the future.

Justine; did I not read correctly earlier?
I thought you had suggested moving it to the pregnancy area?

"many folks wanted the original thread moved into AT&C because it's painful for them to stumble across it on the general chat boards. That's why we moved it."

Is that why you moved it? because people specifically asked for it to be moved into this area? I am shocked that you thought that was the right thing to do and shame on those who specified that it be moved here!

Of all places why move it here, didn't you think of how inappropriate that was?

Also, since making the decision, haven't you seen that the OP has actually stated that she very deliberately did not start this thread in this area and that she has also asked for it to be moved from here?

Why have you done what a few people asked when it was in chat and yet ignored the several requests by people here to remove it from this place of support? If you move it back to chat it will disappear as no one has posed in it for a while.

I got huge support from the initial Support Thread for women who have chosen to terminate, quite soon after this section of Mumsnet has been established. I found the new Antenatal Tests/Choices section by using Advanced search to find out more about Patau's syndrome, but I don't think people would think of looking elsewhere for a Support thread after making a decision to end their pregnancy - unless there was some way of pointing people from one area to the other. Also for me, as for others, I found the thread and first posted before I had actually gone through with ending my pregnancy, and got wonderful support, information and suggestions for how to cope from the women on there. I feel that the Antenatl Tests/Choices section is for practical advice and support and I feel that MN has missed the point being made, that there should be a SEPARATE place for philosophical/ethical debate that polarises opinion (of any kind, not just on termination etc), as it won't be only the people in the support threads who feel alienated by such threads being moved here, but for anyone who is in a situation where their whole world has suddenly crumbled and flown into chaos and turmoil. I recall seeing a similar thread around the time my baby was diagnosed and I can't communicate just how upsetting it was to read at that time. Please do listen to the points being made here and consider this!

I would suggest moving the "moved" thread on again to Off The Beaten Track? Then if anyone wants to continue posting on the thread they can.

It really doesn't seem appropriate in this topic, it really doesn't. I have done some reading on here as a friend recently ended a pregnancy due to unsurvivable disability and it's a very supportive environment.

I appreciate why it was moved but it should not have come here, or to SN.

"many folks wanted the original thread moved into AT&C because it's painful for them to stumble across it on the general chat boards. That's why we moved it."

Shocked and appalled! How painful do you think it is for a mum trying to reach a decision regarding her unborn child to 'stumble' across this?? People go onto 'Chat' to 'Chat'; people come to AT&C because they are at their wits end, they are lost and confused and miserable.

This attitude stinks quite frankly; sorry, but I am furious. I can't help but feel that just because our little ones haven't come into the world, that people think our views and our emotions are less valid. And that as far as I am concerned is judgement being passed on us.

As far as I am concerned my lost baby is still my child, a child I think of and grieve for everyday; to insinuate my pain is any less relevant is disgusting.

""Misty0 - Ok,
Lets just add the word 'support' somewhere in the 'tests/choices' title, leave us where we are, and make sure no one at MN moves what was obviously a debating kind of thread on here again.
No one has to move and we get a title that fits our precious area better.""

""Justine MN -I'm afraid though, that's not really a solution. It works for some but not all - many folks wanted the original thread moved into AT&C because it's painful for them to stumble across it on the general chat boards. That's why we moved it. As said already, there isn't an answer to this that works for everyone as things currently stand and we need a new solution.""

New message! = My above idea was aimed at a "sollution" to protect our forum from misplaced threads in future. The fact that is it not a whole solution doesnt invalidate my idea to alter the name of our forum. It would be a start!

I dont understand the problem with setting up a 'sensitive debate and discusion' forum to put future misplaced/akward to place threads in. Call it what you will. As MN grows as a site and more people join and a willingness to discuss the previouly taboo subjects grows too (a good thing) you at MN need to delelope somewhere specific to put potentialy hurtful/unplaceable threads. Its a fact of life that if you've provided a service ie: the forum where we find refuge, then there is a moral duty to protect that place.

Otherwise your site becomes an online version of Killroy.....god help us

(Sorry if you liked killroy)

misty0 - I don't think that upset is avoidable these days no matter where your post is or what it is about. Some posters will actively start an upsetting thread, some will want genuine information and be flamed and some will not post at all.

In relation to antenatal choices and termination of pregnancy - just like in the special needs section and bereaved parents- there are, and unfortunately, will always be threads that will cause upset in a 'topic' that should be supportive.

People need to be able to ask those questions but i think the main issue is that respect should be given for people WHATEVER their views.

Bucketofsoldiers doesn't that apply to chat also, which is where it was moved from.

Can I make a suggestion? having been in the position of having bad news through testing and having had Sn dx's (difeerent disorders) I hope i am fairly well placed to see all sides.

How about a pregnancy choices section to debate testing, ask questions, look at birth options and all the rest- and then keep An results and choices in a protected area, with an opt in similar to how Sn works? As with Sn it IS a sensitive and horrid time, and frankly both groups are equally deserving of a break from the crap, and the opt in option certainly bought that for Sn, we had all manner of rubbish before we had it- preople posting about how disgusting it was that sn kdis were still in nappies etc.

I am sure, as with teh Sn boards, there are enough supportive posters whoc an gently edge people to the right direction if needed, and Mn can move threads.

I have thought long and hard and tbh that's the best option i can come up with without putting anyone's MH at risk. It's awfult aht someone making such a decision should come across judgements, and it was terrible for my friend whose dd had received a dx of a chromosomal abnormality that very week to read as well.