Pkease come with your sugestions to MN for a new forum for us. A gentle discusion on where we can ask to go...

[misty0]

After the stress caused by a debate raised on termination in the middle of what was being used as a support forum - i feel we should ask Mumsnet for a new place for ladies to go to support each other following termination. Without discussion and debate of ethics or morals likely to cause distress.

I would like this thread to be nonconfrontational - i am just reaching out for ideas for a new place for us and how best to name it?

There is an 'Off the Beaten Track' topic in 'Other stuff'. When threads are put in there, they don't appear in active convos, self-destruct after a certain time (about 40 days, iirc) and aren't searchable. That might be a place for quiet discussion. It's usually fairly peaceful over there.

Hello all

As one of the old timers who was here when BusierBee's request for a safe place laid the foundations of this haven, I would just advise to sit tight, don't bump the other thread. It will go away. Don't lose or move what has been and is so vital.

There was originally a lot of (not so passive) aggression towards the setting up of this area, its name etc etc. The minute ATC was set up, some MNers posted what could be construed as an inflammatory thread right alongside. Unpleasant. But it went away in time. This is not the same set of circumstances, but there are parallels.

My postscript. I relied so heavily on this place for a couple of years and it was a godsend. However, one of the brilliant things about this type of support system is that you know (in the absolutely nicest of ways) when you don't need it anymore. Indeed, when it can be counterproductive for you to stay - and happily, that's where I am.

Keep strong and stay on the bench (or on cold and wintry days, in the cottage!)

Hi all,

Just a quick note as DD has a horrible rash (nothing serious I'm sure) and we're off to the docs.

I also think we should sit tight and not react to this. If we all ignore the thread it will evenutally go away though I would hope that it will be moved anyway by MNHQ.

I think that it's important for the support threads to be placed in AT/C as this is the area of MN that people first visit at the start of the awful journey of testing, bad results, decision making etc. Many people end up in the support threads after using different threads in this area of the site and I feel that if they were located elsewhere the links would not be so obvious and the progression may not be so easy. AT/C is a journey and support at the end of that journey is vital.

It's a shame that this has happened but as Shangrila has said, it will pass. And even happen again (though hopefully not). I think MN have simply made a mistake and hopefully they will see that. Though I wouldnt be surprised if they do move the thread it will be with the attitude, 'we believe we placed the thread appropriately, however do not wish to cause upset....'

I will of course use the threads wherever they are placed as what is most important is giving and recieving support but I do hope we can stand our ground and continue to do what is important and just ignore this discussion that has no place in our area of the site.

I occasionally check this forum to try and answer any questions people have on high probabilities from nt's as it was both my introduction to mumsnet and my lifeline when we were going through the cvs.

Please just ignore the 'other' thread and let it die - of course there is a place for debate but this is not it and especially not from people who have never walked a mile in our shoes.

Whether or not people agree with my decisions, I wouldn't be so insensitive to question someone else's when in such a horrendous position and in need of support. That thread doesn't dignify a response when in a forum like this and I too am extremely annoyed that mumsnet thought to place it here.

I have to say I agree with Mishtabel. i like being here and I think it helps as people coming onto antenatal test and choices who have not terminated a pregnancy, and who may not decide to do so, can ask questions to help inform their decision. if we are separated from that area I'm unlikely to check two areas because I'm damn lazy.

it's worked fine up till now and I was not personally upset by the thread as I am further down the road. The people who are likely to not need that thread in their face are people who have recently had a result and may have come to mumsnet seeking support from people who have been through an experience similar to them rather than judgements/opinions from people who have never been in that position (which they can get anywhere). sorry if that is unhelpful.

ooh lots of 'people' in my post

Hi all,
Thanks so much for starting this discussion and all the feedback.

First off, the last thing we want to do is to add to anyone's grief. The truth is, there is no place for this thread that doesn't upset some users. Those with children with DS and other special needs feel strongly that they don't want to stumble across it. Those who use the AT&C forum as a place for support for very difficult decisions re termination don't want to see a philosophical discussion in this area. But the truth is, Antenatal choices is where these kind of threads are going to be started as a rule, as the topic name indicates that it's where you'd naturally put them, and, as we've said, we do think MN ought to be the kind of place where this type of discussion occurs.

The options, we think, are to start a new forum - Support and coping with termination in the Body and Soul area has been suggested and seems like a good option; or for those who would rather stay in the AT&C area, to hide these type of discussions.

Of course we are happy to try a new forum if that's what folks would like - please do let us know what you think.

So, what does everyone think?

Firstly, bit confused as this post didn't originate in the AT&C forum, it was inappropriately moved there. I completely understand that parents of children with Down's, or other special needs, would not want this sort of inflammatory discussion popping up in their area of comfort and support, (as a parent of a special child myself, I probably wouldn't). But equally AT&C contributors don't want it either. Our feeling are no less valid and where I agree that yes, the uninitiated few may inadvertently stumble in here to ask inappropriate questions, surely policing the inappropriate and moving them elsewhere is the solution? I fully agree that open and frank discussion is necessary, but equally on reading the thread there is a large amount of judgement, not discussion.

I feel quite strongly that to move support for those coming to terms with termination should be as a seperate forum, but should stay under pregnancy; not one of the ladies I have spoken to or whose stories I have read wanted to be anything other than pregnant and so it is an automatic 'home' for those looking for solace. Would this be possible with a caveat at the top of each thread, as with the Special Needs forums? Along the lines of, 'These pages/ threads are for the support of members facing the difficult decision to terminate after antenatal testing. Members wishing to discuss the ethics of termination can post threads under.....' and then give them opportunity under Body and Soul, (so they do not then stumble into Special Needs?)? Equally, they can still ask the questions under the general AT&C banner if they insist, but this small forum/ area would be 'off limits'?

Thoughts ladies? Sorry if I am incoherent or babbling; have a four year old demanding sausages for lunch! xxx

I Cinn, happen to think that is absolute crap. Not what your suggesting, but MN's response.

I've been checking all evening to see what MN's reply would be - certainly not worth the wait. FWIW ladies, I don't think you should go. I feel this support thread and it's sister thread, should be visible - not hidden. No one has anything to feel ashamed of, or that they should be judged for. I'm sure most that either post or lurk are supportive. And if there are others that judge people in this situation, but just lurk on the threads to be nosey, then how sad is their life?

Hopefully no one will post on the other thread and it will die off as Shangrila said (big wave to you Shangrila!), but if they do, what I would suggest, and I forget what they call it, but when you use a thread up - just posting a word (or a punctuation mark, anything) per thread until it's gone. Perhaps use each short thread to express your frustration

For anyone that wanted that thread thread to remain here - too bad - grow a heart and take your debate elsewhere. MN might not care about these ladies, but there are plenty that do.

I think that is so lousy of MN. I'm sorry ladies, but just know many don't agree that that thread should be in your face xx

I would just like to add my support to the posters on this thread.
I neither have a disabled child or have had/am considering a termination.
I agree wholeheartedly that that thread should never have been moved to this area. Very unfair.
Ladies, you have my support, and I'm sure many others.

Ooh, that's a relief! Read the first 9 words and nearly wet myself!

Personally, I agree with you 100% on all counts. Don't see why we should be chased off something so vital and necessary. Trying to be middle of the road with my suggestions, (if you knew me in RL you'd be stunned, I'm a bit gung-ho but out of respect for the views of others and the more sensitive I've been toning it down!), as it seems we are not going to get any support protecting ourselves from the pitch fork brigade, but I'm feeling pretty let down. This AT&C forum has been a life line for me, and restored my faith in the kindness of strangers at a time when my world fell apart. These a*s with their opinions and finger wagging should go back to Bigotsville and leave us to comfort and grieve in peace.

So there you have my diplomatic opinion, and my honest one! How's that for frank discussion, ha ha!! xxx

Just want to say to Bucharest and others that have shown their support, that I know it would mean an awful lot to these ladies to hear that. Thank you

That was to Mishtabel BTW! I've never nearly wet myself by someone adding support - thanks Bucharest! xxx

what mishtabel said.

@ Cinn. I know what you mean about usually trying to be respectful of others views, if only that was a two way street, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'm usually a lot more calm, but when something is blatantly unfair, such as this is, I'll admit I can be like a dog with a bone.

Firstly thanks to MN for looking again at this.

I think i agree with other posters that if we are going to have a 'dedicated' forum - specifically for support and coping with termination - then it should stay under pregnancy. That is how i found this forum last week, and is how many others who needed help have found there way here easily too.

I know i originaly suggested "Body and Soul" but was worried we'd get 'lost' over there.

Without wishing to complicate matters further - could we use what cinammon has sugested and instead of 'moving us' perhaps remanme this forum slightly and add that caveat at the top (like you do with the forums for pushchairs ect. "This area is not for selling"..) about this being for support based threads not moral debates??

Or we could leave things as they are??

I dont know - i'm not a web site designer neither am i good with deciding things - just good at chucking ideas around. Take it from here then ladies ....

Disappointing response. Perhaps the most sensible thing would be to have an 'Ethics' section of MN so that any threads which are set up to debate issues such as this can have a rightful place and people can completely avoid that area if they wish. That way people can discuss terminations, euthanasia etc. without worrying (or not) that they may be upsetting people who are looking for support during a very difficult time.

Justines response indicates that the feelings of those with children with SNs is valid but those going through termination have to just get over it and hide the thread. And that in itself feels like a bit of a judgement.

Total cop out by MNHQ IMO.

Can't upset the SN ladies (quite rightly, nothing against them)

but

Ok to upset us, as the topic name suggests this is where the 'debate' should be.

Ho hum.

I really want to post on that thread but refuse to bump it any more and think bumping all other threads in the section repeatedly if someone does post on it is a v good idea (thanks Mishtabel)

I am very very annoyed about this and I really don't think any of us should move anywhere.

me again. having read all the latest replies i too don't think we should be moved. i feel OUR threads, our support network and our advice when asked by women in similar situations to us, *should stay here - this is the first place i thought to look when i had my initial bad scan result and subsequent results and developments since then. this is the most relevant place for us to gather the support that we need at the moment, and i don't need to be 'tricked' into reading a thread which has such a wide variety of opinions and views on the subject.
while i agree that this shouldn't be moved to SN for a whole host of other reasons similar to ours, this thread also doesn't belong here. there is too much raw emotion, especially for those of us (me, misty cinnamon etc) who have very recently suffered our losses.
i like cinnamons idea of the caviat at the top - is this something that could work for us? i have actually hidden the thread now anyway, but just 'knowing' that it is still here, and who else might innocently stumble upon it as i did makes my blood boil.
x

Justine,

Thanks for responding. I dont think moving the coping with termination section (if this does get created) out of pregnancy is a good idea. I like many of the mums on here turned to AT/C for support and feel that if a new forum is created, it really should be kept in pregnancy as this is when 'our' journey begins. Many of us are still here months later. Mumsnet is always growing and adapting, and hope that you can understand why many of us would be offended if this forum was allocated to mind and boby as this certainly wouldn't be where I would go looking for support should the worst ever happen again.

I also think it would be a good idea to set up a Debates & Discussion forum for questions like the one that was raised and subsequently moved into AT/C. I understand that there is no specific place for this discussion, and the amount of upset it has caused to a great deal of users both in AT/C and Chat really raises the issue of finding a dedicated forum for sensative and controversial discussions/debates.

Please could you let us know if this is a possibility, as this would solve a good many issues if/when future subject are raised that cause upset.

I have no personal experience of the terrible decisions you've had to make but agree that this area should be for support/comfort/what do I do now? rather than soapbox discussions. I don't think you should have to move as sadly there will be women in the future who will need you and have to be able to find you.

I second Natz' idea to set up a Debates and Discussions forum for such discussions. The ATC forum is used for support. It is a vital lifeline for many of us dealing with the absolute worst time of our lives, and for helping us to rebuild our lives afterwards.

That thread has really shaken me up but, worse than that, the response from MNHQ is quite sickeningly insensitive, thoughtless and crass. It IS a judgement. It has made me feel vulnerable and ostracised all at once.

I reported the thread to MNHQ and got the stock response. I have emailed back as well as posting here.

I feel so sickened by this I thought I may stop visiting MN, but then I realised that sadly there will be more women following in our shoes who will need our support, so I won't leave, but please MNHQ, move that thread... there will be women logging on NOW having got bad nuchal results / positive CVS or amnio looking for information and support and will be faced with that thread while in a very fragile emotional state. You have the power to remove that thread from their immediate gaze as they trawl desperately through the ATC forum as we all have done... please do it.

As a recent fairly regular poster on this forum (although not on the support threads but I am fully aware of their nature) I was shocked and disappointed to see the DS thread show up here.

This forum has been so wonderful and supportive to women (including me) facing all sorts of incredibly difficult antenatal choices and experiences - but it is not a debate forum. Perhaps the forum should be renamed to reflect that - e.g. "Antenatal Tests/Choices Support" instead. It's far more useful as a support forum than a debate forum after all.

I really do not want the support threads to be moved from here. They are a natural place for people who initially posted here with their bad results to move on to without having to hunt around - or they may not even know about them if they were moved. They are a huge part of the support network. They naturally belong here as they fit the natural ethos of this forum (despite the name) far more so than a debate thread involving people who don't have the first clue what it is like to go through the experience.

I completely agree with MN that the DS thread is a valid one for discussion, and indeed I found it interesting to read, but then I turned out to be one of the lucky ones and I am not in the middle of an upsetting decision or situation. I just don't think here is the place any more than the SN group or _Chat, and I can understand MN's dilemma of where to put it.

I do like the idea of a debate/ethics forum - I can see how it could get quite lively and plenty of people love a good debate after all. I'm quite surprised MN does not have one already to be honest as MN members in general are hardly lacking in opinions and I bet it would get very popular. I think such a forum would be a perfect place for the thread.

If any new forums should be created, I'd vote for a debate/ethics one rather than fragmenting this one - this one does not need to be fragmented any further as it is already fairly low traffic and covers a very narrow area.

I'm sorry girls, I seem to have arrived late to this discussion. If you knew me in RL you wouldn't be at all surprised!

Firstly I wanted to say how disappointed I am with mumsnet hq. I honestly feel that they looked at the title and put it here because there was ds in the title without any thought for the people that use the board. However, I have to agree with the last few posts. I think that we should stay here because this is where people will find us after they have gained support from testing and after diagnosis. Also, we have a lot to offer on those type of threads too, because we've been there and done that.

I think that people will never intentionally start similar threads on this board as LesAnimaux didn't- because it's inappropriate- even if mumsnet are too stubborn to admit it. Therefore I say let this thread die out!

I also agree that we should havethe word 'support' added to the name of the board.

Have to go to bed now as am shattered!

Love to everyone x

Hello - it is a very long time since I have posted here. My name is Busier Bee. I posted two years ago in the pregnancy thread; pregnant and very scared. I had previously had a termination for DS and was lonely and in need of support.
I had another diagnosis of DS. I was shocked, angry, muddled and despairing. During this time another thread began, I know not where, debating whether I should be allowed to post in the pregnancy section. I was pregant, soon not to be, broken and soon to be broken again.
I moved home.
A new home was created for me and women like me; women facing agonising decisions. Ante-natal choices and tests. I was unsure at first. I felt such sorrow. Such judgment being rained down on me. I felt no ill will towards anyone who chose differently. Of course I did not. But I felt chased out and hounded.
My new home offered comfort and friendship and sanity.
I posted sometimes twenty times a day.
What saddens me is what has always saddened me when these debates arise. Here we are. Intelligent women in the twenty first century. A century where women not too far from us geographically are raped, broken, disrespected and unlistened to. And yet, when we are in our deepest, darkest moments, whatever they may be, we do not rally and comfort but create a little war. There is no black and white, there is no wrong and right. There is pain and heartache and sometimes joy.
Mumsnet HQ, did you know this would cause inflammation and antagonism? Of course you did. Did you know that there are women from both ends of the spectrum, those who choose to continue with a pregnanct with a diagnosis of DS or another condition, and those who do not? Of course you did. Yes, I know women have a choose to hide threads. But we all know,we all know, that we are drawn to them. Partly out of self torture, what might-have-been, partly it is the process of acceptance and emotional recovery.
It is so sad that our little haven as flared up again.
Do not run and hide anywhere.
You have a safe place somewhere in this area; you will be listened to. This will die down and wounds will be licked.
Countless women have sought solace and friendship here; it saved my emotional life. I am proud of what we have allowed to grow here. As am sure the women in the SN section feel.
Each woman in pain and confusion deserves and needs it; whatever the route of that pain may be.
I hope you continue to find it here. It is a special place. Just go back and find it. It is still there. No one has gone. No one has abandoned you.
Hold on tight.
It does get easier.
Bee
xxx