Intolerant neighbours?

[LordVolAuVent]

Hi everyone

I'm new on here (although have read boards before for advice just never joined - cheeky?)so nice to "meet" you all.

Anyway, got a problem now with neighbours and need some points of view. DS always been a bad sleeper, finally settled down after lots of hard work on our part about 10-12m. Now 14m and started waking at 5-5.30 . Used to go til 6.30-7.

Am hoping it's a phase due to lighter mornings and want to stick with tried and tested methods of keeping him in cot til "reasonable" hour. He does need his sleep really.

But neighbours (we are ground flat in shared building, they are above) bombarding us with letters about how it's too early, they find it upsetting hearing him "scream" and although they admire our "resilience" they can't take it. They want us to move his bedroom (not possible) or sound proof ceiling (we rent the flat). Or just let him get up whenever he wakes (get the impression they think we are mean and selfish not doing that -are we???).

They have no kids. They own their flat, we rent ours. Have tried to explain that it is not just for our benefit, but his too and if we are consistent (v difficult when worried about neighbours) the phase will most likely pass quickly, quicker at least...

Am I wrong to feel like reprimanded school child, and more importantly that they are being quite intolerant and having a really negative impact on how we want to look after our child? Any views really welcome!

Tbh, you can't do anything about him crying when he wakes up - the neighbours just have to get used to it.

I agree if you were leaving him to cry for long periods at 5am it wouldn't be on, but a child crying upon waking at 6.30am - all you can do is get him up as quickly as possible.

I really think you should tell them that!

Well maybe not the BU bit, but about the fact that you understand in the past the 5am crying was difficult for them but that now you have managed to get him to sleep til 6.30/7 and that really, that is the best you can do. 6.30/7 is a pretty normal time for a LO to wake up. Tell them everything you do to keep him quiet- they probably don't realise that it could be a lot worse (i.e. when they don't hear him, they don't realise that they don't hear him because you are keeping him quiet, ifyswim).

I imagine they are in a pissed-off mindset and will be until they hear/read something from you that tells them you are aware it is an issue, that you have done X,Y, Z because of it and outline what you think is reasonable for them to put up with (e.g. him waking at 7 am)

Whether you should have to do that or whether you are within your rights and they should put up and shut up is kind of beside the point because the current situation is stressing you out, so, and you need to find a solution, ifyswim.

Also, don't know the size of your bedrooms but could you swap bedrooms with DS?

more give and take needed on both sides maybe. life is noisy. and going to get noisier once your ds is really up and about. forget crying, here come the thudding yelling and banging about.

they need to soundproof themselves, really, if they've grown intolerant, though you could help yourself out with proactive chat wil landlord if there are any cheap ways he can refurb.

fwiw, relax about the 8am thing. 8am is considered full on daytime by common and statutory law.

The Noise Act 1996 is a more specific legislative act relating to noise at night.

?night hours? means the period beginning with 11pm and ending with the following 7am."

expecting peace at 8am is over hopeful of her. though for the future, i work really hard to keep mine from thundering around until then, and out of the garden. i keep the house quiet til 9am on saturdays and 10am sundays and bank holidays. far as possible. we go out a lot early morning, even all through winter.

for the kids, i don't tbh care if it impacts on their being happy and sunny 24/7, they've been shown some social responsibility from the get go, which is a far more valuable strength imo. but then i'm no keen on 'just want them happy' i just want mine wholehearted through good times, bad and the boring ones.

and taking the initiative this way has helped us. the new grad students living next door complained about noise one lunchtime, while they were sleeping off hangovers, i was truly laughing when i told them about our 8-9-10 habit and they suddenly realised how lucky there were they've very cheerfully wound their necks in about that one now.

and pointing out the same habit worked wonders with us when i had to negotiate with the other side about finally tying up their year long DIY-athon. they made an effort - hired in contractors and finished in 8 days.

I disagree with a lot of the posters. We have a little girl living next door, her room is next to our bedroom and up until she was about 2 she would scream for the most of the night. Its not so bad now but she does wake at about 5 and cry until 7. Its not nice but I've just accepted it as one of those things. Children make noise. What I couldn't handle was when we lived in a flat and had rowdy party people living either side. That was a nightmare.

We are expecting our second baby shortly and who knows what type of sleeper he will be. I just hope that our neighbours show the same kind of understanding that we have shown them.

All neighbours are different.

We live a block of flats on the ground floor and I was concerned that baby crying would disturn the neighbour upstairs as his room below hers. But it was fine.

Another neighbour had a child with SN who never slept and would scream and her neigbour would make a big fuss most of the time. Her landlord was supportive of her but she'd take her LO out at about 3am to calm him down (and avoid wrath of this particular neighbour) and we'd all hear the screaming.

TBH my view was that she was doing her best and so was her child and none of the other neighbours (except one) complained at all.

I think you've lucked out with the neighbours as the noise isn't malicious at all.

I've lost the thread of what's actually happening now. Why are they 'bombarding' you with letters if the crying has only happened a couple of times, they get up at 6.30 for work anyway, complaining about crying after they're up.

They're not disturbed by him waking, it's the screaming.
I think you have to be in a certain situation to do controlled crying. And if there are others around not so resilient (to use their word) whether it's older siblings with school, partner with work, neighbours etc - you're perhaps not in a position to do it. Controlled crying isn't for everyone, I'm surprised it's "recommended in almost ALL parenting books" - some people find it upsetting to hear it. It's the distress that makes it perhaps more offensive than singing birds.

What time is your you are trying to keep him in bed to? Because these LOs do start their day early. I used to get to snooze til around 9 by bringing DD in with me when she woke early. Okay she was fidgety, but it was nicer than screaming.

Why don't you just talk to them?
It sounds to me as though they are trying to be reasonable, how else after all can you communicate something that is obviously causiing you quite a lot of upset without causing a scene? How many times do we see advice here telling posters to "if it might be a difficult situation try writing a letter"?

If you were to invite them in and talk to them about your parenting style and your plans with your ds, they may understand. And if they feel that you are not ignoring his cries and that it will be temporary they might cut you some slack.

However, you live in a flat. You need to be considerate. If you are causing enough noise to make them write to you, then you too need to compromise. We found that ds needed to change his routine regularly. Perhaps yours does too - maybe up early but an extra nap, or move mealtimes around a bit. Then you maybe won't feel it as necessary to leave him to his own devices first thing in the morning?

Also...(another 2 penn'orth) controlled crying and crying it out if you really want to use these techniques are really aimed at "sleep training". Leaving him when he wakes up probably wont work as he isn't tired and won't drift off to sleep. Teaching him to amuse himself needs a different approach imho.

Good luck!

merryberry - thanks for great advice and legal specifics. Unfortunately our landlord has been dragging his heels over sorting out a rat problem for the last 6 months so I'm not confident of any refurbs/sound proofing! Worth a try I guess tho...
I am worried about him getting noisier as he gets older too, which is another reason why I'd like him to get used to staying in bed longer now! But fab advice about getting them out etc, thanks.
When I say I want him to be happy, I don't mean at everyone else's expense, or at the expense of social responsibility, I just meant I didn't want him tired all the time - you hear so many things about the negative heakth and behavioural impacts of children who don't get enough sleep.

paisleyleaf - perhaps "bombarding" was a bit strong, they've sent 3 letters, one after a couple of mornings of 10/15mins controlled crying, then one a week or so later to say they were still woken when he woke at5 (altho I was getting him up). At that point I explained that I thought if I was given time to be consistent he would go back to waking later so they told us they were away over Easter and we had permission to try then. It worked, but I got another letter about him effectively being the alarm clock this week after he woke at 6.45 (he wasn't left to cry) so yes, it is the waking, not just the screaming. her boyfriend gets up at 6.30 for work, not her, he doesn't actually live there (but stays most of the time) - I'm confused as to why he doesn't wake her but my son does too, part of my thought process behind her BU. I know controlled crying isn't for everyone, but actually I don't think they should question my parenting methods, if they want to complain about general noise that's one thing but to bring emotions into it is a bit out of order, especially when they have no kids.

kitbit and others who keep saying it, I will keep repeating, it does and has worked, he has now gone back to waking later again

thedollshouse - I wish we lived above you!

Good advice about talking tho kitbit and I have tried but have twice been ignored when knocking ( and I know someone was in)

Anyway, the upshot is, have written a letter back trying to explain etc and have purchased a travel cot today. For various boring reasons it's not possible for us to swap rooms, but we've said that if he wakes before 6 we'll move him to travel cot in our room if we're not going to get him up. After 6 we'll get him up but have asked for understanding that he'll cry immediately upon waking but won't be left long and hopefully they can learn to tune this out if they know it won't go on long.
They have written back that they are "prepared to give our plans a go" - not overly enthusiastic but it's something.

Thanks for all ideas and opinions, let's hope things settle down.... Til the next little phase!

what exactly are they going to do if they can't tolerate any crying? (in the future)i can't believe they 'gave' you permission! who the do they think they are?

Next time they complain i would point out that neighbourly disputes affect sales of properties - they are the ones that will lose out by starting the dispute!

My dgs [13m]usually wakes about 5.30 and dd and her dh just take him in with them for an hour till his brother wakes up.Honestly I think you have to get up with him if he is crying enough to disturb your neighbours.

Just read this page-by 7am they are BVU to complain at all.

'Give you permission'
'Prepared to give it a go'

Bloody hell, all sympathy I had for them just vanished. Do what you think is right for him & you - sod them.

If it's taken the landlord 6 months to sort out Rats, it's going to take him a lot longer to sort out evicting someone on the basis of a crying baby

IMO 6.30pm bed time is way too early thats probably why is he waking so early.

I also think that you are being a bit harsh on the neighbours. It sounds like you are putting your desire for routine, and @teaching@ him above their needs,

There is NO WAY we would do controlled crying in the middle of the night for example. it would disturb neighbours so instead we bring baby to bed with us

I'd suggest a combo of later bedtime, black-outs and knacker the little one with exercise

TBH I would be mortified if I was waking my neighbours at 5am every day, I feel very sorry for them

This is a 14 month baby, not a newborn

When I started reading this thread, I thought you were leaving your DS to cry for hours and hours but reading your last few posts I think they're being massively out of order. I wonder who was living in the flat before you?

I am exactly the same living situation as you - ground floor flat with DC, people upstairs don't have any (actually he does but they live with their mother and are teenagers). They have occasionally said they've heard him when I've apologised for his appalling sleep but otherwise have not commented at all. I have done controlled crying at times and my 3 year old is an appalling sleeper, regularly waking at 5am (or earlier!) and he always, always cries when he wakes up.

They are being totally unreasonable IMO. Do they have carpetting? Do you? Additional soft furnishing is a good way to muffle sound.

I'd buy them some ear plugs

you can buy sound proofing for the ceiling from here

It's about £180 for a roll 12m by 1.25m which I think - having puzzled over it for about 15 mins - will easily cover an average sized bedroom (10ft by 10ft say).

It's an alternative and would stop you stressing.

Thanks Oliver, will check it out.

LadyBiscuit, the people who lived here before us were childless couple, but I know from a conversation a long time ago that previous to that there was a drum player! When we looked round the flat another man was viewing it too and he would've been putting a young baby and a toddler in DS's now room, so it could've been worse for neighbour! I've never told her that, perhaps I should... Thanks for post and glad you have understanding neighbours. This seems to completely split people, either they would never dream of complaining (I know some people who preferred to sell up and move than consider complaining) or they think they shouldn't have to tolerate other people's kids at all. Difficult.

Porcamiseria, don't know where you got a 6.30 bedtime from, he goes to bed between 7.30-8.00. I am mortified at waking them, but that doesn't mean it's not a difficult, multi-faceted problem! And it puzzles me (and this is not just you) as to why people think it is easier to control a 14m old from crying than a younger baby. Frankly I find it more difficult, when he was little he co-slept which he now refuses and I just popped the boob in his mouth so he never cried for any length of time at all.

Tinypawz is right, he will get over it and blackout blinds will work too..

Children do cry.

Fuck me, I hope I never live with any of you whose children have woken up in the morning at 5.30. I would never ever moan. Unless they were crying for the next 3 hours.

He is now waking later than 6.30am and yet you are still leaving him to cry while you prepare his bottle.

If you change the order - get him out of bed and then put sit him down to play while you prepare the bottle - doesn't that solve the problem?

sorry I read :Used to go til 6.30-7.
and misassumed

I get its hard, but I dont see one bit of sympathy for your neightbours here. she has bought this flat so she cant leave, and gets woken early every day!

I just dont think leaving them to cry in the am is fair, TBH

I'd still try a slightly later bedtime, then bring to bed with you when awakes , and will hopefully settle back

This will pass......

Well if you read earlier posts porcamiseria, you'll see that over the last 14m I have tried to be really considerate to them and I am in fact sympathetic to them but I do believe that they are now being a bit over sensitive. It takes about 30 secs to prepare his bottle altho I must admit I do sometimes pop to the loo as well . Perhaps I should wet myself and camp immediately outside his room so they don't have to endure more than a nanosecond of his terrible din...

I might add that their stairs go over our bedroom and they often wake me by slamming the door and clomping up the stairs when they come in after I've gone to bed, sometimes in a shared building you have to endure some noise so I have never bothered to complain, despite the fact thatt I would be quite careful about slamming doors in a flat where I knew a baby was sleeping, particularly if I then got pissed off when that baby woke and cried.

dont take it out on me! you asked, I answered, dont get all pissy if you dont like my answer! This is AIBU after all...

"I must admit I do sometimes pop to the loo as well shock. Perhaps I should wet myself and camp immediately outside his room so they don't have to endure more than a nanosecond of his terrible din..."

No, you should set an alarm clock for 6.15. That gives you time to pop to the loo, get the milk ready and put the kettle on.