Intolerant neighbours?

[LordVolAuVent]

Hi everyone

I'm new on here (although have read boards before for advice just never joined - cheeky?)so nice to "meet" you all.

Anyway, got a problem now with neighbours and need some points of view. DS always been a bad sleeper, finally settled down after lots of hard work on our part about 10-12m. Now 14m and started waking at 5-5.30 . Used to go til 6.30-7.

Am hoping it's a phase due to lighter mornings and want to stick with tried and tested methods of keeping him in cot til "reasonable" hour. He does need his sleep really.

But neighbours (we are ground flat in shared building, they are above) bombarding us with letters about how it's too early, they find it upsetting hearing him "scream" and although they admire our "resilience" they can't take it. They want us to move his bedroom (not possible) or sound proof ceiling (we rent the flat). Or just let him get up whenever he wakes (get the impression they think we are mean and selfish not doing that -are we???).

They have no kids. They own their flat, we rent ours. Have tried to explain that it is not just for our benefit, but his too and if we are consistent (v difficult when worried about neighbours) the phase will most likely pass quickly, quicker at least...

Am I wrong to feel like reprimanded school child, and more importantly that they are being quite intolerant and having a really negative impact on how we want to look after our child? Any views really welcome!

Have we broken our tenency agreement?
The letters are not formal, just on scrap paper, no date or anything...

Thanks merryberry, that's interesting and thanks, felix, that is what I intend to do. Usually in bed by 10 I'mSoNotTelling, up unusually late las night trying to draft letter back (tried to knock and talk but they didn't answer) and thought I'd try for some advice

Children and flats do not mix.
I feel sorry for your poor neighbours TBH.

I think if he is not going back to sleep despite being left to scream then you may just have to get up with him.

I know DS1 was bad at setteling at night and the HV said put him in his cot and leave him to scream..I did for 3 nights (sat on the stairs crying my eyes out for being such a rubbish mother) but by night 4 he went to bed and took 5 minuets to settle, I would not have carried on with it if a week in he was still screaming.
We were very lucky though we have a semi detached house and the lady next door is stone deaf.

OP, leaving him because he needs extra sleep is silly - he obviously doesn't need the extra sleep then! If he did he wouldn't be awake! Let him nap later when he needs it - not when you want him to have it!

If is genuinely still tired just take himin with you for another hour or two. I just don't understand peoples' reluctance to do this - he's 14 mo - you are not going to roll over and crush him to death!

Again, he is going back to sleep and not screaming for ages...
Sorry that I care more about myself and my family than my neighbours,thesecondcoming... They care more about themselves than us tho, are they selfish? My point was merely that it's not like it's not negatively impacting us at their expense, it's negatively impacting all of us which is why I want to be able to sort it out.

Have told them all that in a letter back before Easter, was given permission to try while they were away, am going to explain again as Felix said, think that's all I can do while he is now back to waking at a reasonable hour.

Mainly wanted opinions on who was unreasonable as everyone I've spoken to face to face has said they are, but they are family and friends so obviously going to side with us!

Thanks a lot, has been very illuminating and lots to think about!

Since the clocks changed my 3 yo has taken to waking at 5.45. I think we had about 2 weeks of it. Luckily for our neighbours she is co sleeping and still BF so she demands a feed and goes back to sleep- no crying- I just get a slap round the head .

BUT I have to get up for work at 6.30am. Being woken up earlier than I need to means I haven't got time to go back to sleep and after a few days of it I am exhausted and bad tempered.

This is reality for your neighbours every day and it shouldn't be their problem. YABVU.

I can't believe you think they should move/ wear earplugs/ sleep somewhere else. You are renting, why don't you move to somewhere detached?

the general gist i got was that he WAS/IS going back to sleep after a few minutes of crying, but that the neighbours don't want even a minute of crying. Which is very unreasonable imo. op's problem is that she feels she has been unable to be consistent due to trying to be fair to the neighbours. babies cry on waking, sometimes they cry for a few minutes and then go to sleep, you can't jump at the slightest whimper just because the neighbours don't like the sound. i would try for a little longer if you feel this is what will work, if it then doesn't you are going to have to accept that you and he have to get up. write to them and tell them that is what you will do, give a deadline, and point out there will still sometimes be crying, he is a baby.

As I said before, he won't stay in the bed with us, just gets up and runs around.
If he wakes at 2am or 12.30am as he does sometimes, should I get him up then as he "obviously doesn't need his sleep", TiggyR? No offence, but I know when he's tired or has had enough sleep, it's really obvious in him - the fact that he has now gone back to sleeping that extra hour plus proves it.

Thanks agin everyone

Op. Have you made effort to dull the noise in the room with soft furnishings ?

Google around on how to reduce noise to see what u can do there. Nothing worse than an empty room that rebounds noise

Lots and lots of egg boxes to the wall!! ;-)

I think your neighbours are being arsey with you.

You've done all you can in the past really, unfortunately sometimes children go through periods when they cry/scream/make all sorts of noises at odd times.
In a flat its really hard to minimise that and you end up getting very stressed trying to kep practically silent to appease the neighbours.
(have been there )

I would simply write back, saying you appreciate they don't enjoy the early morning waking but you are trying to get his routine back and will keep trying. Offer them earplugs but also state that this has only been happening for a couple of weeks and is not by any means a permanent state of affairs.
Keep a copy in case there are any queries from your landlord.

And ignore any further letters. You seem perfectly capable of getting your son's routine back to normal and I'm sure when you do get up you are already trying to keep any noise to a minimum.

No of course not LVAV, but waking up occasionally at 2 am because of a dream, or needing a dry nappy or a drink, or whatever, and then struggling to settle is one thing, but waking up habitually at a certain time every morning is another thing altogether. I don't mean to harangue you, I know a wide awake baby when you are tired is never easy - I just never found that leaving them to cry it out/get bored/give up was an option worth pursueing with my own kids. I always caved in before they did! It's difficult to know without hearing their side of the story just who is being more unreasonable here, but I know if it were me I would just get up and get on with it. Take turns with DP depending on what your work schedules are.

tell your neighbours to bugger off, you are doing your best and theyu will have to deal with that. Its not as if your not trying. All those people who are judging this lady should be ashamed. NO parent wants thier child to wake up crying.....some kids just wake up crying. oooohhhh some of your comments made me soooo angry.

only read half the thread but has it been suggested that the upstairs neighbours soundproof their floor? thick underlay etc?

i would never carryout renovations on rented property and as the upstairs people own theirs and will have to put up other, possibly much noisier tennants, in future they should be the ones forking out for soundproofing.

OP- You are doing all you can to keep the noise to a minimum. Personally, I would write the neighbours a letter outlining that and I would end it by stating that I will not communicate via letter in the future, you are doing all you can, children sometimes cry and there's little you can do about it (other than the obvious). I would also inform your LL yourself about this issue ( a non issue in my mind) so that if they go to the LL they are already aware of your side of the story.

I haven't lived in a flat for years but we do live in a terraced house, next door little girl was a terrible sleeper for the first 4 YEARS and has only just started to sleep through, my neighbour did all she could but we still had many nights of disturbed sleep, I wouldn't have written the poor woman a letter and added to her stress which would have made her situation even worse!

If however it was avoidable noise then I would have spoken with her, children crying isn't always avoidable, and I'm pretty amazed at how many other mother's think it is! I wish someone would come round here and tell my 2yr old and next doors 4 yr old (who btw wakes my 2yr old) that no child should be making a noise before 8am!!

This is a pertinent thread for me- just had another disasterous night with 7.5 month old waking every hour or so from 2am onwards. Got so so so tired. Went into living room to escape just for a few mins. She went ballistic. Tried to ignore for few mins in the hope that she'd drop off. Forlorn hope. Had row with partner as neither of us know what to do and we're both knackered. Suddenly remembered neighbours and felt even shitter as they're lovely and don't deserve all this at 3am. Rushed back up to her feeling angry and sad and deeply tired and also rubbish that the neighbours and our other children had almost certainly been woken by her crying and our argument even though it was a shouted whisper type one rather than full on yelling. They don't usually hear her as I bring her into bed every time she utters first cry- meaning I spend a massive portion of the night either awake or in a fitful sleep as I'm pummelled and suckled and bitten constantly by my wiggly restless girlface. I'm then becoming massively grumpy and snappy during the day, especially when anything stressful occurs. The rest of the family are discombobulated by this as I'm generally fairly sunny and laid back and seen as the one who copes.

We're in a terraced house and our walls are paper thin so I feel that there's no choice really. Ironically people on the street are always saying what a lovely good baby she is as they never hear her at night! hahahahahahaha! (Well, she is really lovely actually and good in my book but definitely not good in the sense they mean!)

So I really sympathise with the no sleep stress, op. Attending to her every squeak isn't doing anything to help my daughter learn to sleep and now she's past 6 months I would absolutely definitely be gearing up to do controlled crying if it wasn't for the neighbours. But but but... I do agree with everyone who says that neighbours really shouldn't be subjected to avoidable baby screaming- it's our problem not theirs. I am so glad we have lovely neighbours though. I'd be gutted to receive letters and think that's pretty mean of them, tbh. I agree that the idea of a charm offensive that someone mentioned- dropping round flowers or wine?- sounds like be a good one. In fact, I'm just off to write a card to my next door neighbours.

Hope things miraculously improve soon.

children can make a noise before 8am

toddlers should not be left screaming and yelling in their rooms at 5am every morning because they want to get up

there is a difference

I can see both points of view....must be really annoying for your neighbours. I once lived in a flat years ago before I had children, the people above had children who were always waking me up, the noise of other people?s children can sometimes be unbearable especially when you've got to get up for work!

However, now I have children, I am much more tolerable to crying, although I must admit it can still grate me I am just able to sometimes switch off. I would also, like others have mentioned put my child in with me if he woke. I used to do this, anything for some sleep! It hasn't done my son (2.7) any harm and he now sleeps in his own bed and room, has done since he was two.

Also, if your son won't sleep in the bed and wants to run around it's very clear he isn't tired! You need to get up with him...see to him and let your neighbours get some kip!

Buy them some earplug and then ignore any further complaints.

I agree with everything I'mSoNotTelling has said.

The neighbours are being a bit unreasonable with their constant letter writing (but I presume they want proof that they have followed the correct procedure if they decide to report the OP to her landlord or whatever)

The OP is being unreasonable for thinking it's not her problem.

On a practical level I can't work out if the child still naps? Maybe to avoid early waking it might be time to get rid of one or all of them. I took dd's last nap away when she was just short of 2 as otherwise she was awake till midnight.

I also agree that a child who is running around, and will not stay in bed, is not ready to sleep at that particular time.

He may well be overtired some of the time, or not in a good sleep pattern, but he sure as hell isn't ready to go back to sleep if he wakes at 5 am and won't go back to sleep, despite tried and tested strategies.

Get up with him, start your day then, and work towards a sleep pattern that's acceptable.

On the contrary, I do think it's my problem, hence why I'm asking advice etc... I also think I know how to solve it but am not being able to try.

Will google sound proofing options, thanks for that suggestion.

Thanks to others acknowledging the stress caused, it is on my mind ALL the time to the point where I'm stressing about noise in the day too as she works from home, and he is a noisy boy generally - quite excitable etc. If I didn;t care about the neighbours, was purely selfish and didn't think it was my problem I would let him cry and not give a shit what they said/did, but I am REALLY stressed out about it all.

I will state again that if left he will go back to sleep after a relatively short time, and violethill and kaekae, you haven't met my son!!! He runs around ALL the time, WHATEVER - pure strangers have commented on it!

I completely understand about the 5am thing, and if I had left him to cry for weeks that would be bad, but it was a couple of occasions only. The other times, he just WOKE and that was enough to get them up, even though I got him up, IYSWIM. And that is the problem now.... He cries immediately upon waking and they still don't like it at 6.30-7, but how can I possibly stop that?

On the contrary, I do think it's my problem, hence why I'm asking advice etc... I also think I know how to solve it but am not being able to try.

Will google sound proofing options, thanks for that suggestion.

Thanks to others acknowledging the stress caused, it is on my mind ALL the time to the point where I'm stressing about noise in the day too as she works from home, and he is a noisy boy generally - quite excitable etc. If I didn;t care about the neighbours, was purely selfish and didn't think it was my problem I would let him cry and not give a shit what they said/did, but I am REALLY stressed out about it all.

I will state again that if left he will go back to sleep after a relatively short time, and violethill and kaekae, you haven't met my son!!! He runs around ALL the time, WHATEVER - pure strangers have commented on it!

I completely understand about the 5am thing, and if I had left him to cry for weeks that would be bad, but it was a couple of occasions only. The other times, he just WOKE and that was enough to get them up, even though I got him up, IYSWIM. And that is the problem now.... He cries immediately upon waking and they still don't like it at 6.30-7, but how can I possibly stop that?

whoops, didn't mean to post that twice, sorry!

He does still nap, by the way, Bucharest - only about 30mins to an hr. He definitely still needs it. He is a weird boy who really does need his sleep but hates it!

Just to say - I really don't think it's BU of the neighbours to complain about long crying spells at 5am. I don't think it's BU for neighbours to not want to put up with controlled crying at any point when they're trying to sleep. I wouldn't leave him crying morning after morning for long spells when it was achieiving nothing. I wanted to be able to do it for a few nights, for a relatively short time to solve the greater problem, which it DID when they were away over Easter. I really am doing it mainly for DS because he really does need that sleep, I promise you, and while of course it's no fun for me if he's cranky etc, it's also no fun for him. When he's had enough sleep he is so lovely and funny and eager to please but we really know when he hasn't - I want him to be happy and sunny.

But with the progress made I'm no longer too worried about 5am waking (fingers crossed!) or even controlled crying. But they are now saying that ANY crying for ANY length of time at ANY time before .... I'm not sure really, say 8am, is intolerable and upsetting to them, and wakes them so he is "unfortunately effectively their alarm clock". I can't force him to sleep til 8am, frankly the only way I could would be by a LONG period of refusing to let him up before then which would be unacceptable. I put in about the 5am wakings for the background, because I do understand their tolerance has got low because of that and that is where all this started. Also, wanted a general overview of opinions on neighbours complaining about crying babies. Also because if it ever happens again, I would want to do the same thing - be tough and keep him in cot for a few nights to solve the problem and I wouldn't be "allowed" unless we were lucky and they were away again.

I definitely do think they're BU for complaining about normal waking between 6.30-7 although I understand that they have got pissed off about the 5am wakings - but again I can't actually stop him waking even if I do get him up! It seems they have become hypersensitive to his waking, maybe because it's expected, which i do understand can happen. So I guess my point is that... Isn't it better that they suffer a few mornings of controlled crying for a longer term gain, than constant mornings of 5am wakings, which seems to wake them now whether I get him up or not?