Intolerant neighbours?

[LordVolAuVent]

Hi everyone

I'm new on here (although have read boards before for advice just never joined - cheeky?)so nice to "meet" you all.

Anyway, got a problem now with neighbours and need some points of view. DS always been a bad sleeper, finally settled down after lots of hard work on our part about 10-12m. Now 14m and started waking at 5-5.30 . Used to go til 6.30-7.

Am hoping it's a phase due to lighter mornings and want to stick with tried and tested methods of keeping him in cot til "reasonable" hour. He does need his sleep really.

But neighbours (we are ground flat in shared building, they are above) bombarding us with letters about how it's too early, they find it upsetting hearing him "scream" and although they admire our "resilience" they can't take it. They want us to move his bedroom (not possible) or sound proof ceiling (we rent the flat). Or just let him get up whenever he wakes (get the impression they think we are mean and selfish not doing that -are we???).

They have no kids. They own their flat, we rent ours. Have tried to explain that it is not just for our benefit, but his too and if we are consistent (v difficult when worried about neighbours) the phase will most likely pass quickly, quicker at least...

Am I wrong to feel like reprimanded school child, and more importantly that they are being quite intolerant and having a really negative impact on how we want to look after our child? Any views really welcome!

This is a tricky one as we all have different ideals/methods/tolerance thresholds, but, for what it's worth:

I have three kids and in my experience most babies and toddlers do wake up much earlier than we do ideally, but it's not that they are 'wrong' and need to be re-trained, but that we need to be retrained to understand that they don't do it to be naughty or annoying, but purely because they are awake, refreshed, and ready for a change of scenery! They don't have any concept of what is or isn't an acceptable time to wake up - they just go with their body clock. I always got up when mine did, and if it was really too early (like before 5.30 or 6 am) then they would be brought into our bed for a cuddle and sometimes we'd be lucky enough to all fall back to sleep for an hour or so. But for me getting up early was no big deal -I just went to bed earlier to compensate. And besides, I could never relax knowing my child was screaming the house down and possibly disturbing others every day. And it doesn't last forever! My youngest is ten now, and enforced early mornings seem like vague and distant memories.I'm the one up first in our house now, stomping around crossly on my own until 11am on non-school days! I can see that babies and toddlers may need a certain amount of controlled crying to settle in the evening, but I think it's a bit mean in the morning - personally.

let him get up and then make as much noise as possible, ie magnified daytime noises. when they complain about that (which it seems they will) smile sweetly and say 'i took your advice and let him get up'

This would drive me nuts, tbh.

I feel very sorry for your neighbours, but as someone else said, you'd have to have high tolerance of noise to buy a flat, I guess.

Our house is detached and I still get twitchy if someone's kids are playing outside too early (which to my mind is 8 am at weekends)

Have you tried using a dummy? Would giving him a snack & drink & settling him down work?

Your neighbour is BU to send a letter about a child crying at 6:45am. That is a perfectly acceptable time to get up.

YABU to expect your neighbour to listen to week after week (you say that you made progress when they went away over easter - how long has this been going on? I think you are on a hiding to nothing expecting him to suddenly get better) of screaming at 5am.

Try another method.

Thinking again though - it is part of what happens whne you live in a flat. It's noisy and it's tough shit.

But I think that trying for weeks to make him sleep more after 5 is fruitless. Less stressful for you to just get up I think.

Babies and children cannot be held responsible for their actions, tbh I tell your neighbours to stop with the letters and speak to you face to face, if this was not done I would get someone to speak to them about harassment!

Even if they complained to your LL their is nothing that can be done, as its a flat and again babies cry. Babies crying is not included in noise pollution as it is unforeseeable and also baby is not responsible for actions.

I sympathised with your neighbours, however you are doing your best to solve the situation

Poor neighbours. A 14mo screaming to get up every morning at 5am is not the same as a new baby having a wail in the night.

I am also baffled at the idea that if the couple didn't want any noise they shouldn't have bought a flat it's not a choice is it. I'm sure if they could afford a detached house then that is what they would have bought.

I think that what is happened that over the course of the weeks the neighbours tolerance for the crying has got less and less to the point that now every time he starts they sit there with their heads in their hands feelign doomed. It happens with my neighbours when they have their barbequaes til late every single weekend - it doesn't take long for goodwill to start to ebb away as sleep is lost, then i start getting annoyed with otehr noise that they make...

I think if it were my child waking at 5 and not going back to sleep and I were getting complaints from teh neighbours i would get up, or bring him into bed with some books and toys.

Baically the neighbours are having to get up at 5 because the OP doesn't want to.

I think the point about the rented/ owning thing may have been distracting a bit. Did you mean by choosing a flat above a flat means you are more likely to get noise? Anyway thats by the by.

I think the best thing for you to do is go nand speak to them- ask for 2 weeks to try to get it sorted- if it doesn't work tell them you'll try another technique.

I don't want to seem agressive to the OP but I do agree with that last line, ImSoNot.

Trying to unreasonably mould a baby's behaviour to your own wants and 'needs' rather than accepting that parenthood is an incovenient PITA for a while, is futile and counter-productive IMHO. Better to get up, snooze on the sofa whilst baby potters around, or just get dressed and get on with something useful! Fighting it is harder than embracing it.

mrsvidiv yes I think that is what they are getting at but IME it is the flat underneath that gets the noise, from feet walking and music and telly and stuff it comes straight down through the ceiling.

It's points like this one "you'd have to have high tolerance of noise to buy a flat, I guess." that are leaving me baffled.

Also the OP questioning why they bought above a rented flat. The flat may not have been rented when they bought. The vendor may not have known whether the flat was rented or owned. etc etc.

I find it bizarre that people seem to be saying that because this couple "chose" to live in a flat they have to put up with anything that is thrown at them.

When you're doing CC it is common to ask/warn the neighbours isn't it, that there will be noise an that it shouldn't go on for more than a week or so and if it does you will think again.

This courtesy does not seem to have been extended here.

It's a really weird attitude isn't it ImSoNotTelling?

You could point to a million other threads where people are worrying about money, and housing, and whether they can afford to live, and you'll see sympathy in abundance.

Yet on a thread like this, some people just say they should 'Move somewhere else' or 'Go and buy a detached house'- like it's all that simple and everyone has money to just up and move.

The fact is, expecting neighbours to put up with unreasonable noise at antisocial hours is unfair whatever the noise is - whether it's music, TV, shouting or crying. And this IS a controllable noise. It's not a newborn baby crying until it's fed or changed - it's a toddler being left to shout/yell/whatever because his parents don't want to get him up.

these have they heard of comprimise - have they moved their bedroom? have they tried changing there patterns? Have they got ear plugs?

They got a flat in a shared building and didn't get it soundproofed - but want you to do all these things when they havn't even tried first

I would absolutely loathe you if you were my neighbour and your toddler screamed from 5am every single morning for no medical reason. If I lived above you I might contemplate getting rid of the carpet and clopping around in high heels, particularly during nap times, until you decided to leave.

Forget the garbage you've been told about routines - do whatever it takes (co-sleeping is a reliable winner) to get your child to be quiet in the mornings.

Have they tried changing their patterns? How do you mean - giving up work so they can have a lie in? Giving up their social life so that they can go to bed at 9?

I notice the OP was up posting past midnight - maybe it is her who should be changing her habits and turning in early.

my now 2 year old did this for 5 months starting at 15 months. sometimes waking as early as 0445. he shares a room with his 4 year old brother, who was suffering from it. so i (mostly me, i'm like your neighbours and wake and that's it) would whisk him out, give him some milk or water, he was definetly thirsty, doze on the sofa while he pottered. no tv, no book reading no playing with him, just letting him realise he was still tired. after about 90 minutes he would go back down again for 90 minutes. then he did some developmental leap and stopped it within 2 weeks. sleeps through fine now. i leave a water beaker for him, and i know he drinks it in the night now, no idea when.

finding a compromise with your neighrbours, who are clearly affected try - if you are willing to do this, if it makes a difference to them, though by what you say it's the cry in waking is the problem, big it all up to them, and point out they should wear ear plus and soundprrof their floor. IME more effective to sound proof a floor than a ceiling. not neccessarily cheaper though.

Yes they should perhaps give up work and reduce there social life.... get real theycould try changng there bedroom or sound proofing, which was there own suggestion wasn't it in the letter.

Can you write them a letter back so you have clear evidence that you are doing everything you can if this goes any further?
Say that you are very sorry they are getting disturbed and that you are doing your utmost to ensure their disturbance is minimised.
Say clearly that ds used to wake at 7am and o ly started waking at 5am 2 weeks ago. If you comfort him for 5 to 10 minutes at that time he goes back to sleep and is much happier all day. If you get him up immediately at 5am he is tired and upset all day. You feel you need to keep up the encouragement to get him to sleep longer as otherwise it will result in your ds suffering.
Tell them that when he wakes, whatever time it is, even at 7am, he cries for milk. This is normal, it can't be helped and that you get him his milk as quickly as you can to minimise any noise again. Explain that this is what happened aftr Easter at the 6.45 time and that there is really not a lot you can do about him crying on waking, although obviously he is likely to grow out of it. In the mean tine you are doing everything you can to minimise it.
Mention again that unfortunately you are not able to sound proof in your flat as it's rented but perhaps they would consider soundproofing theirs? Or even swapping bedrooms themselves?
Also offer to buy them earplugs and say that you think they really will help a lot.

Morning everyone,

I just want to clarify a few things. First the buy/rent issue - I only mentioned it because I feel at a disadvantage because we rent and am worried about eviction implications.

Second, I have always been a considerate neighbour I think. My DH was working away most of DS's first year so has been tough at times, as no-one else was there to pacify a very bad sleeper but I never let him cry for anytime at all as a little one. He co-slept and fed to sleep up until 9m. At 8m we both got flu and sleeping deteriorated evn further, he was waking hourly, refusing to go down to bed at start of night and neither of us could shake off illness. (BTW has never liked day naps either and until 11m I pushed him to sleep in pram for every nap so he didn't scream at all)
Something had to change, clearly. Tried no cry sleep solution but wasn't getting results and had always been against any form of controlled crying but eventually gave in and within 2nights he was sleeping through. Never cried for more than 15mins at a time either.

When I did this, I explained to the neighbours, bought them ear plugs and a bottle of wine and explained exactly what I was doi ng so they would understand the process. I always go and tell them if he is ill or there is any reason for his sleep to be disturbed - teeth, jabs etc so they are forewarned. I always go and apologise if he has had an unexpected bad nigt, not often BTW. I bought them more wine and chocs at Xmas to say thanks again.

Thirdly, I know he doesn't really want to be awake at 5 - on the COUPLE of occasions I have left him to cry, he has gone back to sleep after 10/15mins, but they say they are awake then and can't get back to sleep. The rest of the time I've been getting him up because of them so have been v inconsistent so he learns quickly (as evidenced by success of controlled crying) that he will be got up if he makes a noise. On those days he has been tired, grumpy, tantrummy etc. His day sleeps are always worse, and he then sleeps worse the next night - it's a vicious circle.

I can get him up and go back to sleep myself in fact, he plays very nicely by himself so I'm not leaving him becuase I want an extra hour in bed but because he does need that extra sleep and that is one of the main reasons I am annoyed with the neighbours, they think I'm doing it to be selfish and that it is cruel (when they have no idea about parenting themselves). The people who keep saying it has a negative impact on the neighbours' day, yes I'm sure it does, but it also has a negative impact on my son's day and our day and frankly I care more about us than them!

They have not endure "weeks" of "hours" of screaming, just a couple of mornings of some minutes,max 15 I would say. I do think it's a phase brought on by a sick bug and lighter mornings which is why I would like to be consistent for a while and not get him up and give him milk whenever he wakes, as I think he will quickly get used to that if I do (did, in fact!). I think he is/was confused by the inconsistency before Easter and din't know what to do.

They were away 4 nights over Easter and "gave" us that time and he has gone back to waking post-6.30 but as I said before, i've had a letter about that now, even though he was only left for a few mins while I prepared bottle. It does seem they have lost ALL patience and dioesn't seem like they will be happy til we have moved him in with us or sound proofed the ceiling. I know that he will continue have the odd morning where he wakes earlier than he should or disturbed night and would like the freedom to leave him in his cot if at all possible so it doesn't turn into habit.

Finally, if they want to call social services, they are more than welcome, controlled crying is recommended in almost ALL parenting books, agree with it or not so I find it highly doubtful that social services would do anything about it.

I actually feel that by being so considerate in the past, they are now taking advantage a bit.

YABU but I sympathise.

Ds1 screams a lot but only at bedtime. He's spirited and just does not settle well. To break this we did let him cry and this eventually worked but we don't have neighbours.

I have also lived in a flat next to a couple who did the same. It's stressful for the neighbours and gets them into a stress pattern expecting to be woken.

So sound proofing moving are options. To be honest the reason you have letters will be to prove you have broken your tenancy agreement.

I would suggest you look to nullify the noise . Does the room have soft items to dull the noise. Can you put extra lining around the door, perhaps a draft excluder. Make use of sheets across the ceiling to damp down the noise. Then show the neighbours.

Sounds a tricky one

Well tell them that then, fgs. As other people have pointed out, they are being a bit unreasonable but then again, they are being woken up pretty early because of it. The advice that has been offered here is : Talk to them/write to them telling them what you just told us and see if by talking about it you can agree on something. So that they don't think this is going to go on forever.

Oh, yes, and add as many soft furnishings as you can to the room.