To think that this is a ridiculous arrangement?

[Bfgirl101]

I have a friend and I’m really struggling not to say something.

She is married with a 2.5 year old child. She’s also pregnant with her second.

Her dh works full time but she doesn’t work at the moment, which is fair enough, she has a small child.

But, her toddler has been in nursery 2.5 days a week since he was 1. It’s costing them an absolute fortune and she fully intends to put baby number 2 into nursery too.

She is constantly telling me how broke they are and worrying about money but she sees the nursery as essential because apparently her ds loves it there and it’s all for his development.

Aibu to think that this is a crazy arrangement and find it hard not to say something?

But this mum is not working non stop without a break, even if she cancelled or reduced the nursery place? She has a DH who is around evenings and weekends, she has help from the child's grandparents. It sounds more like her DH is the one working non-stop without a break in this scenario!

A single parent, or a parent without regular support at home (e.g. partner on long-term overseas deployment, working 12 hour shifts), is likely working non-stop between paid labour and domestic labour. They have my utmost respect.

OP isn't criticising the woman for having a childcare in nursery - it's the fact that the family can't afford the nursery fees, resulting in the woman complaining to OP about it, that is the issue here. It's unfair to turn this into OP/anyone else being accused of not recognising the value of the hard work that a parent does (whether working or stay at home).

He's a big grown up man who can put his shoes on the right feet and everything OP. He doesn't need you to go to bat for him. If he's unhappy with the arrangement he can address it.

Yes but this support from DH and the GP is very non specific, exactly how many hours support are they providing, I doubt they are literally taking over on weekends and evenings. Who is doing the night wakings etc. I very much doubt even with the few hours this toddler has at nursery and a bit of help here and there from family that this pregnant mother is not packing in at least the equivalent of someone who works full time. I remember being absolutely exhausted in my pregnancies and needed DH to take over as soon as he got home so I could get to bed just so I could work/ childcare the next day. It’s funny how other women would much rather this woman get to breaking point than do the sensible thing and prioritise the support she needs to give herself and her child what they need. It’s probably less stressful for the DH to aswell to know they’re both getting what they need

Indeed, and see so many resentful posts on here from mother’s who don’t feel their partners are helping out enough because they’re exhausted and frazzled and then next thing they’re divorcing etc. which is a hell of lot more expensive than a bit of childcare for a couple of years

That’s quite sneery. I’m not ‘batting’ for him. I’m simply talking in a forum. And if I felt that a female friend or relative was being treated poorly I’d be saying exactly the same thing.

I haven’t calculated exactly how much childcare she is doing, but what I do know is;

Their ds is at nursery 7.30-6 twice a week and 7.30 till lunchtime once a week. On the full days her dh takes him and picks him up. So that’s around 25+ hours she has alone. I know her mum and mil look after her ds for at least some hours every week and she’s regularly with her mom all day on the days her ds is home. I know her dh always did his share of night wakings and I know that he has taken their ds to work at times in her request.

She doesn’t have him on her own much at all. She is pregnant now but it was the same before she got pregnant.

So 25 hours out of 168 a week kid free time (when she’s no doubt doing some of the housework too?) and a bit of time her mum and DH are perhaps helping out, I really don’t see this a mum who is not contributing significantly to the household, maybe not as relentlessly as you think she should. I don’t understand how you can say she doesn’t spend much time with him 🤷🏻‍♀️ she’s with him 4.5 days a week plus evenings and nights give or take the odd few hours her mum or DH may take little one to the park etc. I take it you’d have as equally disparaging opinion of a mother who is ‘only’ with her child weekends and evenings while she works to pay for childcare or maybe if a little left over towards the fancy house/holidays the family have or is that somehow different as she’s exhausting/sacrificing herself to do so, unlike this mother

I said she doesn’t have much time with him ‘on her own’ not that she doesn’t spend any time with him.

The reason I specified that she doesn’t have much time with him on her own is because I am giving context. Which is that she isn’t a put upon mother doing everything by herself.

I’m not sure it’s fair to include hours that everyone’s asleep as time spent with your child. The boy is 2.5 and sleeps 10-12 hours at night plus daytimes naps.

Well, the way you talk about your friend is sneery and more. You hate her, really hate her. Either she has stellar kompromat on you and you're in a hostage situation or you're just being weird and unfair and should stop this farcical 'friendship' before it causes hurt to one or both of you.

I’ve got a 2 year old and they don't settle down until about 9, don’t nap and are still up several times a night. So even when they are at nursery during the day the rest of the 24 hours they can still be a significant amount of work. Even with my DH helping out when he’s not at work. I don’t understand why it’s a negative thing that she’s not spending lots of time on her own with DC 🤷🏻‍♀️ the less time mum and toddlers have to spend on their own I would of thought the happier they generally are, certainly in my experience.
However whether I’m on my own or not with toddler they still need caring for supervising etc, it doesn’t mean it still isn’t work for the mother. Of course we all know it must be quite miserable for a mother completely on her own, with no father involved, no family, no friends, living in the middle of nowhere with no groups etc, of course, but you’re going for the lowest common denominator, I’m not going to waste time thinking why does my friend moan about money when she lives in a house with a bedroom for each child and an ensuite when they could downsize to a flat and get bunk beds as they don’t really ‘need’ such a big house

Our DD went to nursery a day or two a week for one very simple reason - so she could play with other children. That's it. Entirely for her benefit. It also meant that it was easier for her to transition into primary school as she had developed some social skills and could be away from us for periods of time without having a meltdown. I would have felt awful if her whole world until school age had been nothing but adults. Kids need other kids.

Do you think that she thinks that nursery attendance is required? As in, she will be failing her child if he doesn’t go at this age?

Have you not reminded her that the vast majority of us who use/used nurseries do/did so in order to work?

To add to my earlier point, I speak as someone with 6 children and a lot of years of raising children in very different circumstances. Sometimes if you’ve done it all on your own in poverty, you really don’t realise until you do it with a good supportive involved partner, not in poverty, in a good community and with good friends and other resources which make life easier like a car, good housing, childcare etc what a positive difference these things actually make to the welfare and prospects of yourself, your child and the whole family

I don’t say it was a negative.

People have asked questions and I’ve answered and the thread has evolved.

The only reason I have gone into more detail is because a lot of people tried to suggest it that she was probably doing everything alone with no help and a useless husband. So I’m simply explaining that it’s far from the case.

I haven’t said that there is anything wrong with her having help from friends family and of course it goes without saying that her dh should be doing his share. I have explained that he is tired and stressed and the reasons around that.

It comes down to the same thing, they can’t afford to pay for the childcare, she has told me hundreds of times that they are n a mess and worried anti money, in debt, haven’t paid for things and now are worried about the backlog, there is a lot going on with their finances.

The ONLY reason I started the thread is because I and others have become frustrated with her complaining about the same things but with no view to change anything, even if that’s look for a few hours part time work.

Ive accepted that I need to step back from the friendship, I don’t hate her, but it is my and others opinion that she is being unfair to insist on maintaining the status quo AND to keep complaining about it.

Im going to step away from the thread now because I’m tired of answering the same questions. I feel I’ve explained everything numerous times. Some people agree it’s a crazy situation, some people think it’s fine. I will have to agree to disagree.

To be clear, I don’t think there is anything wrong with being a sahp, being a working parent, using childcare, parents having time to themselves and husbands doing their share.

I just think that in THIS particular scenario for this particular person given their finances, they can’t afford to pay £18000 in childcare fees if she isn’t willing to find paid work.

It absolutely feels like this scenario takes up way too much space in your head. My friends do things I wouldn’t do, and sometimes they even complain about the consequences or just their lives in general, but I don’t give it that much thought as they are my friends. I just empathise and we move on.

What can you do about it - you are obviously convinced you’re not being unreasonable, but seem to have decided not to say anything about it - but the thing is, you can’t carry on maintaining a friendship with someone you hold in contempt and bitch about on the internet. So no, it’s not your business and ideally it wouldn’t bother you but seeing as it does, for both of your sakes, maybe it would be best next time she brings it up just tell her it bothers you for whatever reason and say you’re stepping back for a bit.

It's funny how some women want to portray every mother as selfless and can't ever accept that some mothers can be selfish/lazy etc.

Portraying mothers as saints does not help anyone.

We don't know what this woman's exact circumstances are, but we know that the information she has shared with her friend is that: she uses nursery primarily for the social benefits for her child; the family are not able to afford the fees without accruing debt; she has some level of support from her DH and DM and MIL; her DH is at 'breaking point' and wanted her to find some part time work to help with the household costs. She is unreasonable to complain about the cost if she isn't prepared to do anything to alleviate that issue. If the cost is a non-negotiable because it's so essental to her mental health, she would likely have explained that to her friend. Her pregnancy is an irrelevance as she had the set up before pregnant and couldn't afford it then either. She (and her DH, who is also responsible for this) might also have been well advised to space out the pregnancies such that they wouldnt end up needing to pay 2 lots of nursery fees at once because if she can't cope spending much time on her own with 1 child she will likely struggle much more with 2.

Maybe you are projecting, given you only refer to your DH as "helping"...

I get that you think they should be managing their finances better and possibly they should and it’s not how we would personally potentially manage our finances. However I just don’t feel the incessant focus on the childcare is helpful, if it were my friend then yes by all means I would discuss ways she could cut back and some of that might include the childcare e.g. could little one just do half days or increase their income. However I would be very careful to try and accept what she says is a priority to her without judgement. She’ll live and learn at the end of the day, it doesn’t mean you can’t be friends and have some empathy with someone who has different priorities to you

I mean, it would be daft to do it if it was really making your finances untenable. But, I put my twins into a small local playgroup three mornings a week from age 2 as a SAHM for them to make friends and interact with other adults, and to give me time to actually do cleaning, washing, breathe etc. I had no family local to help put regularly, or even really friends with children at this point. This was just post-Covid and I was absolutely on my knees by this point. So "childcare" as a SAHM saved my sanity. Judge away, I could give zero shits.

It’s funny how mothers are either portrayed as selfless saints or lazy, it’s not like a mother is allowed to be in between, someone who is a good enough mother, makes sure her child gets what they need and but who doesn’t want to fulfill this selfless exhausted. saint role that is so useful to the rest of society.
Clearly they need to look at their finances and see what they can do but the automatic default assumption shouldn’t be that she should be turning herself into a more exhausted mother when there are probably other ways they can juggle their finances around to make things work

In the end, the rights and wrongs of nursery or entitlement to time off as a sahp etc, are neither here nor there. She doesn't have the £600 this is costing her, so she has to cut her cloth.

That’s up to her and her DH to decide how to do, focussing incessantly on the childcare they pay for when it is serving a healthy purpose for them is probably not helpful. As I said before if it were my friend I would perhaps discuss with them ways of cutting back and the childcare may be mentioned in with this but I wouldn’t assume it was any less important to them than their mortgage, food, leisure bill, cars etc. I’d also maybe introduce the topic of getting a job and highlight the childcare benefits they would then be possibly entitled to, how much better off they would be with I.e the free childcare plus the income from the job. I’ve had friends complain about money or being unable to to xyz when I’ve seen very clear solutions to their problems but I haven’t fallen out with them over it or even had it taken up undue headspace for me

No! I didn’t ! We could afford for nursery two days as that’s when it was before finding from 9 months….so we scrimped to do it but did not go into debt .

That's good.
It's just crazy to go into debt over something that isn't actually needed (which in the OP friend's situation - they don't need childcare).